President Kgalema Motlanthe speaks to Ebrahim Harvey on the recent media splurges about his personal life, his future role in the ANC, polygamy and the party’s take on Carl Niehaus.
What do you make of a recent newspaper report of a vicious power struggle in the African National Congress (ANC), between you and the general secretary of the South African Communist party, Blade Nzimande, for the position of deputy president of the country, after the elections?
Well, I know of no such struggle between me and Nzimande. I also certainly do not operate in that manner. But more importantly, the position of deputy president of the country is not an elected position. The president appoints the deputy. So canvassing and campaigning and therefore a ”struggle” for that post are ridiculous and senseless. I prefer to focus on doing my job — whether in the ANC or in government — and being judged by the results. I also have no ambition to be the deputy president after the elections. It depends on the president.
Besides, there have also been a few newspaper reports that some ANC national executive committee (NEC) members and leaders of the ANC Youth League do not want you to be the deputy president of the country because — it appears to me — they seem to think that you are too independent-minded and too close to former president Thabo Mbeki, and therefore not to be trusted. Do you also get that sense and what do you think of it?
I don’t know anything about that. Besides, as I pointed out it is the president who decides who the deputy will be. So it is immaterial whether other people want me for that position or not.
In several interviews with me you said that you are decidedly not an ambitious person and that you only occupy positions that the ANC decides. So why do you think it has been reported that some on the NEC of the ANC think you are indeed highly ambitious?
Yes, I say again to you: I am not an ambitions person. I sometimes think that those who say I am ambitious for high office are being mischievous or they may be masking their own ambitions.
In the light of the fact that your name appeared on both Mbeki and Zuma’s lists in the run-up to Polokwane and the recent attacks by supposed comrades of yours in the NEC, I get a sense that because there is an uneasy perception that you are close to Mbeki and therefore not to be fully trusted by Zuma’s supporters, this will forever dog you.
Look, we need to separate these matters. About Mbeki I have always had a good relationship with him over the years and I cannot stop that to please those who make such claims. About trust I think that can sometimes be a very subjective matter. I prefer to focus on working. It is that approach in any case that builds real trust and not trust or distrust merely because you like or dislike someone.
But a recent Sunday newspaper report stated that sources close to you claimed that you told them that you were under sustained attack from a group of people who do not want you to return to the Union Buildings and that therefore you will not be available to serve in a Zuma-led Cabinet after the elections. Is this true?
It is totally untrue. In the interview I had with John Carlin I said I do not really like the job of president because it can be so demanding that you have little or no life of your own. That must not be construed to mean I do not want to serve in the new government after the elections. I suppose more time is also needed to settle into a completely new and very demanding job as head of state. Also we must always remember that no matter what mighty positions we might be in we are still human beings at the end of the day and may miss the many personal freedoms — like walking freely around in a shopping mall — we before took for granted.
And what about the statement by ANC spokesperson Jessie Duarte that after the elections you will return to Luthuli House to focus on political education? Many interpreted that to mean that indeed some senior people in the ANC don’t want you to go back to the Union Buildings after the elections? But if you did that would it not be tantamount to the debilitating withdrawal by Cyril Ramaphosa from politics in 1997, which enabled Mbeki to consolidate his grip on power in the ANC. So what will you do after elections?
Once again I must restate that the president decides on who the ministers in the Cabinet and the deputy president will be. I think many people don’t understand how that process works. And though it has always been a big passion of mine, I have never said that I want to return to Luthuli House to do political education after the elections and therefore not be available for government posts.
It was also reported that some on the NEC do not like you. Do you also feel so and why would that be the case?
(Laughs) If indeed that is the case I don’t know why because I always try to conduct my relations with others — inside and outside the ANC and government — with respect, dignity and consideration. There may be other reasons but certainly not because I was disrespectful or ill-treated someone in the ANC or for that matter outside it too.
I was struck by the fact that the day after a Sunday paper reported that some in the ANC leadership wanted to embarrass you, that the Sowetan newspaper carried a lead story about your marital problems, which I thought was particularly invasive, derogatory and in fact vicious. What did you make of that story and continuing stories of that nature in newspapers over the past month? Has it been too invasive or does the media and public have a right to know who the first lady is and why she has not once been seen with you?
Look, let’s be very clear about this. The marital status and related matters of a president I believe is a very personal matter and it should not at all be a consideration in the performance of the president. There exist no constitutional or legal requirements for a president to present a first lady to the public. About whether it happens or not is a purely circumstantial matter. I often wonder why such a big thing has been made about this thing. This is not an ethical but a circumstantial issue which I should not have to feel obliged to explain in detail.
But when you have a tabloid media, searching for sensational scandal they will come at it from that angle. You see if they had been well-meaning and decent people they would have started by talking to me directly, which has not happened once. When I seen what was happening I thought, let me just not get involved with such people.
Your matter has given rise to a big debate at the moment about the relationship between the political and the personal. What is your position on this crucial question? Can we separate the personal from the political or are they inextricably linked?
Look, I am well aware that as the president I am a public figure serving the citizens of this country and that they pay me for that but this must have nothing to do with my children. They must be able to have the space to lead normal lives. I am not saying that my personal life must be hidden and not be subjected to critical scrutiny in my political life, but it must not drag my children into it. The problems I have had in my family have been there for a long time but why must I have to talk in public about it and thereby please the media just because I am the president of the country? That is where I have to draw the line.
But since this question would inevitably have arisen, surely if you had issued a press statement at the outset, in which you explained upfront what the situation was, it would have prevented all this adverse publicity. Is that not a fair and logical expectation and therefore perhaps a failure — which your adversaries in the ANC have exploited — on your part to foresee this eventuality and take the necessary steps?
Well, I suppose that could be so but I really did not look at it that way at the start because in what way will that affect how I do my job? My focus was on the job I had as president of the country, not on whether or not I had a wife by my side.
However, I think that it is no mere coincidence that the recent newspaper stories of your love life — including the ones about a young women who claimed you impregnated her but subsequently denied it — comes at the same time that you have been under sustained attack by some in the ANC. I think there is a conscious connection. Your response?
Of course, if journalists want to peddle rumour they will go and speak to everybody else but the person concerned. Not a single journalist or editor came to interview me about this specific matter, except you now.
In the light of the allegations in the media that aside from your wife — to whom you are still married — you had two other lovers, what is your opinion about polygamy in this day and age of our democratic dispensation and do you believe that we can and should conveniently separate this practice — which many will argue is an affront to the dignity of affected women and the struggle for genuine equality between the sexes — from the politics of our leaders? I do not believe that any cultural practice must be a holy cow before we uncritically bow but that every cultural practice must be subjected to critical scrutiny when necessary.
This is a very complex matter but I see it as part of societal evolution and development. Polygamous marriages are choices some people make, but others not. But you cannot separate polygamy from society and the various people, strata and thinking within it. It is therefore a historical and societal phenomenon.
The correct way to evaluate this question is to ask whether the right to polygamy exists in our Constitution or not. If it is not forbidden then obviously people who are polygamists will say to their opponents that they are merely exercising their rights. Just like with abortion, polygamy is a right to exercise or not. So when people make choices — informed by their own cultural or value systems — they are exercising their rights.
So although I am not a polygamist and do not come from a family practicing polygamy, I have to respect the right of people to make that choice. Society will always have differing views on this and many other matters. But it would be ludicrous for me to go to women in polygamous marriages and chastise them if indeed that is their free choice.
Is it true that a rift opened between you and Nzimande around the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) Bill: that he strongly criticised your delay in signing it into law and what do you have to say about the delay itself?
Well, as you know I have sent that Bill back to Parliament for reconsideration. But what the general public does not know is that when a Bill is passed and presented to a president it has to be translated into a second official language. It cannot be passed until translation has taken place, which takes time. That is partly the reason for long delays in many Bills and that is why when the chief whip of the ANC in Parliament came to see me he discovered this requirement.
In November 20 Bills were passed but by December only five were translated. Then, of course, I have to consider any objections from whichever parties and send these for legal opinion and apply my mind to it. In the case of the SABC Bill, though, it was not in itself unconstitutional — my concern was that the removal of the SABC board must be accompanied by due process, which was not in place.
Another Sunday paper reported that the ANC is on a ”collision course” with you because you have not toed the party line, mentioning examples such as your support for Mbeki’s application to have Judge Chris Nicholson’s judgement overturned, contrary to their wishes. What is your response to this?
Well, here again the media regretfully seems to rely on faceless sources within the ANC and based on that make scurrilous assertions, rather than either directly communicating with my office or finding out if what they heard is in fact the official position of the ANC. You see I prefer to proceed from the premise of constitutional rights. Mbeki was a sitting president when he was removed and he had therefore the right to challenge his dismissal.
What do you have to say about the reported ANC criticism of your failure to consult them before taking a decision to fire the former director of public prosecutions, Vusi Pikoli?
This is once again when people don’t familiarise themselves with the facts. I followed all the requirements in terms of the National Prosecuting Authority Act after I received the enquiry report, studied it and invited Pikoli to make representations. The point is that the Act does not require me to consult with anyone or party when I make my decision and I was in possession of adequate information to take the decision to dismiss Pikoli.
People forget that I am also the deputy president of the ANC and know of no official decision that questioned or criticised my decision or the manner in which I took it. There are just too many flimsy and incredulous newspaper stories going around about many things, without credibility and verification. Half the time they should not be taken seriously because I think they too forget that I am also deputy president of the ANC. The ANC knows that they would in fact have no basis for objection in this matter.
And the reported ANC’s unhappiness with your continued involvement of Mbeki in the Zimbabwean crisis?
That also is untrue. You have to start asking which ANC are we talking about and who exactly are these faceless people — reportedly inside the ANC — who claim to speak on its behalf.
It has also been reported that you have been under pressure by the ANC to remove some remaining presidential staff who were close to Mbeki. Is this true?
Once again this is a scurrilous story spread by faceless people who are afraid to come into the open and declare themselves and their credentials. As far I am aware — as deputy president of the ANC — this has never been the official position of the ANC. It is simply malicious and destructive gossip.
And that you invited Mbeki to attend the Reconciliation Day celebrations on December 16, but did not extend an invitation to Zuma?
It is also not true. With such events anybody can rock up and as far as invited guests are concerned that is the decision of the organising committee and not me.
And as if all the adverse publicity you have had recently is not enough once again it has been reported that some in the ANC have criticised you for neglecting electoral campaigning. Is this true?
This can get really tiring. If this was about Cape Town it is totally groundless. Last weekend — which from the press is the time in question — my diary was totally occupied with a combination of door-to-door campaigning and several other presidential commitments already organised. If I apparently did not turn up somewhere that is simply because it was nowhere in my diary and was therefore impossible to honour.
But is the recent critical ascendance of MPs in relation to the executive not indeed what many have been rightly calling for in order to strengthen independent oversight over the executive, which you have to concede was quite weak under Mbeki?
I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact I openly encourage the need for greater parliamentary oversight in relation to the executive. I also hope that all parties in the run-up to the elections will have really solid people on their lists so that the very important parliamentary oversight role can be strengthened much more.
The warnings you sounded in recent years — about dreadful internecine strife for positions and material rewards in the ANC — is again, in the run-up to the elections, raising its ugly head. Do you agree and if so how should the ANC deal with it before it tears the party apart, as it already seem to be doing?
The important thing about this development during election campaigning is that people who are driven largely by ambition, power and financial rewards — to the extent that they try to run down or destroy others in the same organisation — are exposed in the process. This has the effect of distinguishing the chaff from the wheat, so to say, which is positive for both the organisation and democratic development. Election time therefore brings out what may otherwise remain dormant.
Do you agree that all your warnings have not helped much to stem the tide of self-serving and opportunistic careerist skulduggery and corruption in the ANC? If so, why do you think this is so?
Well, these problems have indeed shown a stubborn persistence. But this is not what the ANC is supposed to be about and why people have joined the organisation. We need to rekindle the values which before — without expectations of material rewards — defined the organisation.
Some seem to think that the ANC’s decision to nominate Mbeki as a MP candidate a few months after they kicked him out of the presidency of the country was somewhat cynical and hypocritical, and that therefore he was right to reject it. Do you agree, especially in the light of the overturn of the Nicholson judgement?
It is the right of members to nominate any other member in good standing to occupy any position. But it is also the right of that member to decline. It is as simple as that.
It has been reported that some members of the NEC of the ANC, Zuma’s lawyers and in fact Zuma himself earlier threatened to ”spill the beans” if he goes to court for corruption charges? Surely, that strongly suggests that indeed there is substance to the claims of corruption?
I really don’t know what that factually was supposed to mean. But I have said before that anyone who has any evidence of corruption must please come forward and present it to the investigating authorities.
And how do you explain the contradiction between what senior ANC leaders are reported to be saying about you and former ANC spokesperson Carl Niehaus, that ”there are no tensions between the party and its deputy president”? I sense that because we are close to the elections the ANC is trying desperately to deny the obvious fact that there are serious internal differences.
Well, I don’t know of serious tensions between myself and the organisation. One must bear in mind that any ruling party that has gone through some tough times in a very difficult environment will naturally have some internal tensions and even differences but which party in this country does not have it? The ANC is not an exception. The more important point, however, is how constructively any tensions that might exist are resolved — this is much more important than the fact that they exist.
Furthermore, there is growing evidence of significant tensions between Luthuli House and the presidency. Is this not partly because the ANC does not realise that the kind of constitutional responsibilities and duties vested in the president of the country does not and cannot allow for them to dictate matters, no matter how powerful they might be at the polls? Do you agree, and if so how do you envisage that relationship closer in the run-up to and after the elections?
I don’t know of any serious tensions between myself and Luthuli House. You must remember that the national chairperson of the ANC and deputy president of the country, Baleka Mbete, chairs the meetings at Luthuli House and if there are any serious tensions the leadership in the ANC and government would not only know about it but properly deal with it. But naturally we always look at ways in which we can improve and strengthen relations.
The latest public relations disaster by Julius Malema, president of the ANC Youth League, has angered many people, judging by a deluge of complaining letters to editors of various newspapers over the past week. Many are calling for his removal from office, especially since he attacked a minister and leading member of the ANC. Besides, I believe that his many provocative, reckless and tactless utterances are going to alienate many voters in the April elections. The opposition parties are already reportedly saying that Malema is doing them a great favour. What is your view on this matter?
Well, what I am aware of is that he did sincerely apologise for his attack against the minister of education, which she has accepted.
What message do you want to send to your faceless detractors in the ANC, following the great deal of adverse publicity recently, some of which were attributed to unnamed sources in the NEC?
Well, one must avoid cutting one’s nose to spite one’s own face. Constructive criticism is always welcome but what we must avoid is spreading lies or distortions to the media because it only serves to damage the integrity of the entire organisation.
It was reported in a Sunday newspaper last week that in a closed-caucus meeting in Parliament — which you also attended — Minister of Finance Trevor Manual strongly criticised the widely evident trend to give jobs to ANC cadres for which many do not have the necessary qualifications. I cannot recall any ANC leader before being as forthright about this big problem as he was reported to be. Did you agree with that criticism?
I unreservedly agree with those comments. I have said this many times before: we need to recognise the talents, expertise and experience of all South Africans for work in both the private and public sectors.
It is my view that the tragic story of the financial woes of Carl Niehaus and the fraudulent measures he resorted to is in the final analysis attributable to the changes the ANC itself has undergone since 1994: the trend to use political office for self-enrichment and of leaders living the high life. Will that not affect the image of the ANC?
Look, it is a difficult situation but we need to try to strike a balance between acknowledging the problem, dealing with his rehabilitation and using his skills wherever appropriate. It is excessive to call for his dismissal from the ANC, especially since he has admitted his errors and appears genuinely repentant. Is it right to kick people when they down? In the ANC we prefer not to do that. But in terms of values we all have things to think about and learn from this experience. In the ANC we are hopeful that the value of serving the party and government with dedication and integrity will triumph over crass materialism. However, these are challenges all parties and leaders daily face.
It has been reported that there are members or supporters of Cope working in your office and using state resources to further their interests. What do you have to say about that?
Upon enquiry I can say that there is absolutely no truth to this destructive rumour. If they say that this rumour originates within the ANC I doubt it very much: which ANC member will organise for another party? This seems to be one of those many malicious rumours faceless people have been spreading in the media lately.
Finally, to Zimbabwe. Do you agree that the arrest on initially treason and later other charges of Roy Bennett, the treasurer general of the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) in Zimbabwe and deputy minister of agriculture designate, was provocative and tactless and poses a direct and immediate threat to the fragile political settlement and peace between ZANU-PF and the MDC? Mass protests against his arrest reportedly took place. What are you doing to put an end to this before Zimbabwe explodes in violence again?
We in fact made a statement pointing out the dangers of this development and hope that it can be speedily resolved, so that it does not threaten attending to the humanitarian crisis and the process of rebuilding Zimbabwe. I am optimistic that it will be resolved soon. It has to be.
It was reported last week that when it was discovered that President Robert Mugabe made a mistake about the number of Zanu-PF ministers who had to be sworn in last Friday you suggested that ZANU-PF and the MDC should explore how additional ministries could be created to accommodate this. Is that true and if so how can you conceivably justify such a position, which would only serve to reinforce the allegations that South Africa has favoured Mugabe? Besides, in the midst of the current economic and humanitarian crisis to create and fund unnecessary ministries to accommodate Mugabe’s error is bizarre.
This is absolutely untrue. I have never made that suggestion and don’t know where it comes from. It indeed would present a problem.