A meaningful life: Advocate Thuli Madonsela, who is now a lecturer, believes where a person’s burdens and talents come together is where their purpose lies. (Delwyn Verasamy/M&G)
Former public protector Advocate Thuli Madonsela speaks to Lyse Comins about how the aspirations of her students give her hope for South Africa, her views on the former president’s arrest battle following her State of Capture report and of course about true love: for her fiancé, the winelands and mountain-climbing
What does a day at work entail?
It’s reading, writing, meetings and classes. I am a full-time lecturer. At the moment I am busy with essay supervision for legal skills.
What do you love about being a university lecturer?
The opportunity to influence young minds and to be influenced by young minds is a rare and delightful opportunity because you get to download some things that are not in a textbook. Combining your field experience with the textbook and being able to share that with the young ones is a wonderful opportunity and it is also wonderful being able to learn from them with the questions they ask.
I am amazed by this generation. When I was at university as a student it was not normal that students in classes had a conscience about human suffering and injustice. Most just wanted to move on with their lives and earn the highest-paying jobs, the next group was concerned about the quality of food at the residences and then the other small group was concerned about how the other half was living. The majority now are generally concerned about life, other people, the privilege they have and the opportunity they have to make a difference. It’s across the colour line but it tends to be mostly women. I don’t know why it is women who care the most. The university has a vibe of a place that is seized with change. There is an excitement with the change, maybe we are too late with change but there is a joyous vibe about it.
What do you love about living in Stellenbosch?
Everything. I love being in this beautiful place called Stellenbosch. I am a rural-urban girl. I love living next to a mountain and living in a small academic town, next to the greenery of the winelands. I like the small rural town and also the humanity of the people.
What do you do in your leisure time? How do you destress?
Mountain-climbing. As a child, I was a girl guide. So since I joined Trek-4-Mandela in 2018 I have been hiking and mountain-climbing every fortnight and have summited a lot of local mountains and Kilimanjaro, which I will be summiting again on Mandela’s birthday on 18 July. It might be hard at the time but I always feel it is the best stress buster. We are doing it for social justice and it’s all about supporting Trek-4-Mandela and the Imbumba Foundation’s Caring For Girls Initiative, which is giving pads. Now it has grown to give girls leadership skills, the power to dream and carve their own path.
What motivated you to excel as public protector, despite your many political detractors?
As I said to a colleague at the World Bank, the main drive has been the burden of privilege and I think it comes from my upbringing as a Seventh Day Adventist. We always had to go out and look after others. My job as public Protector people see as a corruption-buster but the core of that was about saving democracy to get the state to do what it was meant to do to serve everyone and uphold the rule of law, but also to act as a transformational agent to bring about the South Africa we want in the constitution, to ensure everyone’s potential is reached.
What advice would you give to President Cyril Ramaphosa?
He said when he started, he is going to be like Mandela and one of Mandela’s characteristics was being a confident leader. There are two things they do very well: the one is inspiring hope, and the other is fostering collaboration. I would like to see greater collaboration between him and other political parties and civil society. I see a lot of collaboration with the business sector because he is comfortable with that and also with women business leaders and I commend him for that. He needs to facilitate a conversation to find common ground, for example, the land question. The state is leveraging its hard power to push that agenda. He needs to leverage his soft power to find common ground.
It is legally permissible [to expropriate without compensation without changing the constitution] but that is not an answer to our problems, it is opening the hearts and minds of people to embrace the need for redistribution. I found from speaking to farmers in Upington that people are willing to talk. We need to reprioritise those talks on what the constitution says about healing the division of the past and establishing social justice. Social justice is justice between groups … gay people, disabled people, people of foreign origin.
Speaking about presidents, what is your view regarding former president Jacob Zuma’s arrest debacle?
Nobody is allowed to avoid a court order and former president Zuma can’t have an excuse that he did not obey the court order because he didn’t have lawyers. He wrote a letter, why didn’t he write a letter in the form of pleadings? He, overall, refuses to recognise any court and any structure that disagrees with him. It is sad because we are talking about someone who is old and who other people have an affinity towards because of his sacrifices for the country … and then there is Covid-19. The courts have to navigate this sticky situation because if they don’t then democracy will disintegrate.
Constitutionally the hierarchy of courts is not negotiable, the Constitutional Court is the apex court of our country. If you are saying an interim order can be asked at a lower court against a higher court then you are saying an order of the high court and a supreme court ruling can be challenged in a magistrate’s court. Regarding the application in the Constitutional Court to rescind its own judgement, there are problems with the application. All the judges were in agreement the former president was in contempt of court and all the judgements were in agreement that this contempt was unprecedented and gross. The violation was serious and both judgments agreed he must go to jail.
Is it true that you are engaged to Dick Foxton? Have you set a wedding date?
I never said who I was engaged to! We have not set a date yet. It is Richard Foxton, who is regarded as Dick. It is not easy to find true love. It is opening our hearts to possibilities we are not used to and in having an open mind you can find true love.
At what point in your life was your conscience for social justice awakened?
My church always made me conscious of other people and that I am privileged, that we are all made in the image of God and those of us who are privileged need to make sure we make space for others. On June 16, 1976 it was ignited. I wrote two plays in my life. The one (The Judgement Day) starts with June 16 and being a Seventh Day Adventist, not even believing in killing a cockroach. When I wrote that drama about this young girl — and they say these things are a little biographical — she becomes an MK soldier, from not wanting to kill a cockroach. It was raising the possibility of killing. The other one (Umendo) was about apartheid and was acted out. I have been considering re-looking at the materials and getting them published.
You have shied away from getting involved in politics after many nominations by ANC comrades. Why?
I don’t really think that it is my purpose in life. I believe as somebody once said, where your burdens and your talents come together is where your purpose is. It is easier for me to give political advice than to execute political decisions. It is easier for me to do the adjudication of right and wrong. One of the things you have to do if you are a president is to order people to kill for the greater good.
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