Maputo
It is four months since Robert McBride was arrested in Mozambique. Since then, many thousands of words have been spoken and written about it. This interview, conducted by his wife Paula McBride, represents the first time the voice of McBride himself has been heard since his arrest
During the past few weeks I have been approached by a number of people who have asked me, with a “we’ll keep it confidential” look on their faces: “Now tell me Paula, what exactly was Robert doing in Mozambique?”
My inclination, when asked this question, is to respond by saying: “Well, as long as you promise to keep very quiet about this (make sure you don’t tell Lappies or Suiker) I will tell you.
“You see, he drove up to Maputo in my car (I suggested he should take my car because it is large enough to carry rocket-propelled grenades as well as a considerable number of AK-47s) in order to buy weapons to bring back into our country.
“My advice to him was to make sure the weapons were not sticking out of the windows as this may look a little suspicious. Those that could not fit in the back of the Sani should be thrown out, and those inside should be covered up well with a couple of old blankets.
“His intention in going to Mozambique to buy this vast quantity of weapons was to supply various armed groupings within South Africa as well as farther afield – Fapla, Amakapla, Revolutionary Watchdogs, Young Lions, Tamil Tigers, Irish Republican Army [IRA], Fretilin, cash heist gangs and possibly the Boere Republican Army.
“The only problem was that with the amount of weapons he was able to buy, each organisation would only have received one – but it is quality rather than quantity one is looking for here.”
I do not answer the question in this way but grit my teeth and repeat what I have said since his arrest.
The African National Congress national executive committee released a statement last month in which they acknowledged that he had been set up by agents of apartheid. This I regard as an important development.
They also noted that they did not know what Robert was doing in Mozambique and that I had not been able to shed any light on this.
There are a few conclusions I can draw from this: first is that those in the national executive committee that I have briefed (both in written memos and in meetings) do not believe me; second is that I do not express myself clearly enough; and third is that there remains an unspoken belief that as a woman and a wife I am unreliable.
The solution to all of these would be for those people who want to know what Robert was doing in Mozambique to go and ask him themselves. He has been there for more than four months already and this has not happened.
Failing this, I decided to conduct an interview with Robert so that he himself could answer (in his own words) the questions that I imagine people have for him.
It was admittedly quite a strange experience sitting in a visiting room in Machava prison asking Robert formal questions – but I decided to do it in the hope that it would clear up any confusion people out there may have.
Robert and I chose to do this through the Mail & Guardian as it was the only newspaper that did not indulge in the wild and woolly speculation that followed his arrest. I realise that the speculation was fed by people whose glee at Robert’s arrest was apparent, but I do feel that the printing of such speculation was irresponsible at the time.
However, since the initial hysteria I have found the press reporting responsible and consistent and I appreciate that. Anyway, enough of an introduction. What follows is a transcript of the interview I conducted with Robert on my last visit to him.
Robert, what was your purpose in going to Mozambique?nnnnnnn Well, it’s a long story which I will try to keep brief. I had been given information by Vusi Mbatha in December last year. Aubrey Lekwane and I had traced Vusi because I wanted Vusi to go to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to testify that he had been paid by the police to discredit Winnie Madikizela- Mandela and other ANC leaders during the early Nineties.
While we were discussing this issue,Vusi volunteered to us that he had information that Alex Huambo (known to us in 1993 as a supplier of weapons to the Inkatha Freedom Party) was continuing to do business in Maputo despite the fact that he was a known gun-runner.
Knowing Vusi’s ability to spin wild and wonderful tales I decided that it would be a good idea to verify this information (particularly if Huambo was supplying weapons to the cash heist gangs) and then pass it on to the relevant authorities in both countries. I did not wish to pass on what could turn out to be completely false information.
Why were you particularly concerned about the cash heist gangs?
I had been working with people within the National Intelligence Agency [NIA] who were and are looking into the cash heist gangs. I had provided them with information relevant to their investigation.
Did you come to Mozambique on behalf of the NIA, South African Security Services [Sass] or any other parallel intelligence agency?
No I did not. As I have stated I came here on my own initiative to make sure that when I handed over the information it was factual and verified.
I have however worked in the past at an operational level with both Sass and the NIA on a number of issues. For reasons that are obvious, I have had no direct dealings with military intelligence [MI], although they seem to feel the need to deal with me.
I am also a member of NIEB [National Intelligence Estimates Board, part of the National Intelligence Co- ordinating Committee] as the foreign affairs representative. I presume I was appointed to this board because of my experience and knowledge of security-related and intelligence issues.
Incidentally, my experience within NIEB gave me a good indication of the type of misinformation that is being channelled through the intelligence agencies. When I first got news of the Meiring report it did not surprise me. I have seen worse presented to NIEB.
What were the circumstances of your arrest in Mozambique?
I had arranged with Vusi to set up a transaction with Huambo so that we could verify the fact that he was still operating. I sent Vusi upstairs to Huambo’s flat while I waited some distance away from the scene.
I remained at a distance, despite Vusi trying to get me to go into the flat with him. A little while later I heard a commotion. I understand that inside the flat Vusi was manhandled and his watch and money were taken.
He told those who did this to him (all of whom were in plain clothes) that they had better return his things because there was a South African diplomat outside who would report them.
I then saw a number of them come downstairs with Vusi and a couple of them started assaulting a taxi driver who was outside and who Vusi identified. Not one of the people accompanying Vusi made any move towards me – in fact they stood around like farts in a trance making no move to do anything, least of all arrest me. I presumed that they were Huambo’s hired thugs and I left the scene. I did not wait to get beaten up myself.
Approximately three hours later I was stopped at the border post near Ressano Garcia by police who said they wanted to ask me some questions. Initially I thought they wanted to question me about an accident I had had the previous day in Maputo.
That evening they placed me in a hotel in Ressano Garcia and I was left free to walk around. In fact, at any stage I could have left the country – I felt no need to as I had committed no crime in the country and there was therefore no need to leave.
The car was searched both at the border and the next day in Maputo. Contrary to speculation there were no weapons found in the car, on the roof, in the petrol tank or on my person.
On March 10 I was transferred to police headquarters in Maputo. I made no effort to bribe my way out of the situation (despite being advised to do this by one of the policemen) as I was innocent and had no need or desire to bribe.
I asked during this period whether or not I was under arrest and the answer was: “No, we just want to ask you some questions.” I also asked whether or not I was free to go to which the reply was also “no”, so I requested them to contact the high commissioner and inform him of my whereabouts.
The high commission despatched the South African Police Service [SAPS] attach to the police headquarters to identify me, his name was De Nysschen. He arrived there but never spoke to me. After being shown my passport he said that he knew who I was and stated the following: “Ja, this is a very dangerous man who planted bombs all over South Africa and then got a very fast promotion in foreign affairs.” After this identification, I found a distinct change in attitude and I was brought here (to Machava prison) after a few hours.
What do you think of the speculation around your being set up by agents of the old order?
There is no doubt in my mind that there were (and are) remnants of the old order working hard to undermine our government. And unfortunately many of them remain within the security and intelligence agencies.
I think that what happened to me was a set-up within a set-up within a set- up. It is confusing, so bear with me.
Once Vusi had got me interested in following up the leads around Huambo and the gun-running to the heist gangs, I have no doubt that he reported this to his various paymasters in MI and in the SAPS. This presented those in MI with a golden opportunity to verify their report of a left-wing plot to overthrow President Nelson Mandela’s government.
I should never have allowed them to be presented with such an opportunity but in a number of ways I am not sorry that they were. It forced their hand and forced the early release of the Meiring report which has had extremely favourable results, such as the appointment of Siphiwe Nyanda to lead the South African National Defence Force into a cleaner and more democratic future.
However, within this set-up sits Huambo. He had informed friends (and relatives) of his in the Mozambican police that there was to be an arms transaction taking place and that this presented an opportunity for profit. The intention, when Vusi arrived to purchase the weapons, was to beat him up, take the money and run. This they attempted to do but this also went wrong as I had left the scene and there was no way of knowing how much I had seen.
The third aspect (and possibly the most worrying) of the set-up is the role played by the SAPS component of the joint investigation team. I believe that they deliberately misled their Mozambican counterparts in this investigation and that they manufactured evidence (through Vusi) to ensure that I was charged. Vusi has changed his statement so many times since his arrest that I no longer know what to think.
The most significant changes he made however were after his interrogation by the SAPS team. It was then that the stories of Fapla, Madikizela-Mandela, Nyanda and Lambert Moloi started to emerge. Vusi’s latest statement, in which he says he was threatened by SAPS members to implicate me in gun- running, may be true or may be false. At the very least it should cast serious doubt on his credibility as a witness. The bulk of the “evidence” against me is the word of Vusi – this is worrying.
There were various claims in the press after your arrest that you were gun- running for the East Timorese Resistance Movement and for the IRA. What is your response to this?
Codswallop. I am however quite surprised that the speculation stopped there. Some of my best friends are Tamil speaking and we all know of a very fierce resistance movement in that region of the world. Seriously though, it is ironic that it was these two regions singled out for attention. I have been very publicly involved with the search for peaceful solutions to the conflict in Ireland and to the conflict between East Timor and Indonesia.
The first meeting between Mandela and Gerry Adams of Sinn Fein was set up by me. I also assisted in putting together workshops and meetings for delegations from Ireland to assist them in their search for a negotiated settlement. I have spoken at meetings in Ireland (both North and South) on negotiations and peace.
I also helped set up a meeting between Nobel Peace Prize laureate Jos Ramos- Hortas and Mandela, and I sat in on this meeting. It pleases me that I have played however small a part in helping both regions on the road to peace.
Do you have any comment on the way in which you have been treated in Mozambique and on the Mozambican judicial system?
I have no fight with Mozambique, with their judiciary or with their people. Mozambique is an ally of ours and was an ally under extremely difficult circumstances. The destruction of many parts of their country and many lives was in a major part due to the apartheid government. I feel saddened that some of these elements of the old order have returned to this country and continue their destabilisation.
For me the Mozambican people are a brave people who I admire. I believe they need to be given as much developmental assistance as is possible to enable them to win their war against poverty and corruption.
In saying this I am not saying there are no problems here. There are the inevitable problems of corruption and maladministration, but this is not a reflection of the Mozambican people as a whole. There has been, in my view, a breakdown of respect for law and order which accompanies war and conflict. Institutions need rebuilding, but this is happening and I believe that the Mozambican recovery will surprise us all.
As for the treatment I have received here, I have been in solitary confinement since my arrest and no one who has experienced this, in any prison, would regard it as a fun experience. I am however spending more time now outside my cell and have been able to exercise and play soccer.
Paula is not restricted in her visits to me any more and that is good. I have made friends with many of the warders and my Portuguese is improving rapidly. I would of course rather be home but my treatment has certainly been without the cruelty that I came to know in Pretoria maximum security prison.
I sense no glee or satisfaction in those whose job it is to keep me in prison.
The judicial system is different to ours. The procedures are different and the laws are different. This does not mean that they are better or worse than our own. I know of people in South African jails who have spent far longer than four months awaiting trial.
I am pleased that my case has now gone to the supreme court as I know their reputation is extremely good. It has been a long time, but I feel that the case is now in good hands and that there will be a resolution at some stage soon.
What is it you miss most about being away?
Silly question. I miss Paula and our children and all I want is to be home with them.
A lot of people have expressed their support for you in South Africa. Is there anything you want to say to them?
Just to say I will be back soon, though not soon enough, and I look forward to facing those involved in plotting against me. I also want to thank those people (friends and comrades) who have helped during this time. Too many people to thank so I will not do this by name. Those who have been around to help my family and who have shown in very real ways their belief in me know who they are.
To those people, especially colleagues within the department (both at head office and at missions around the world), who have contributed towards paying my legal fees, I also thank you.
Do you want to comment on the manner in which your government has handled your arrest and detention?
At this stage I have no comment on this. Paula is liaising with Minister of Safety and Security Sydney Mufumadi on the issue and she has expressed her appreciation with the manner in which he is dealing with this.
I have not personally spoken to people within the government since my arrest, apart from high commissioner Mangisi Zitha. He has been helpful towards me and to Paula.