/ 2 July 2008

Pikoli: Mbeki ‘shocked’ over Selebi warrants

President Thabo Mbeki was shocked when told that warrants had been issued against police chief Jackie Selebi, the Ginwala inquiry heard on Wednesday.

President Thabo Mbeki was shocked when told that search and arrest warrants had been issued against police National Commissioner Jackie Selebi, the Ginwala inquiry into suspended prosecutions boss Vusi Pikoli’s fitness to hold office heard in Johannesburg on Wednesday.

Pikoli told the inquiry that the warrants had been obtained on September 14 for Selebi’s home and office, and he felt he needed to inform the president.

They met on September 15 and he told Mbeki that because the Directorate of Special Operations (DSO) had not received the information it needed from the police, it had decided to go ahead with obtaining the warrants.

”The president appeared shocked, and was not happy with the fact that we had obtained these warrants … because he felt that the process was still under way [to get the police to voluntarily provide the documents].”

Mbeki asked Pikoli to hold off on executing the warrants for two weeks, but Pikoli said this was too long.

However, to give Mbeki a chance to create an ”enabling” environment, Pikoli said he would wait a week. This was because of the experience he had had when searching African National Congress president Jacob Zuma’s offices and homes.

”My mind also went back to 2005 when we had ugly stuff at the residence of Mr Jacob Zuma. And considering the fact that we were now going to have warrants executed against the national commissioner of police, who … had men under arms, there could be a potentially explosive situation.”

He thought that during this time, Mbeki could suspend Selebi so that he would not be in command of armed people, or a meeting could be arranged with the police to facilitate the execution of the warrants.

”I could not be so reckless as to think that we could just move in, guns blazing, as earlier suggested.”

The meeting ended and that evening he prepared a report on the investigation, as suggested by Presidency Director General Frank Chikane.

The meeting resumed on Sunday of that week, and he handed the report to Mbeki. Chikane and Leonard McCarthy, former DSO head, were also present.

Mbeki reiterated the need for two weeks and Pikoli repeated his offer of a week.

Mbeki replied: ”Vusi, do you know how angry the police are? Do you know there are police officers who are prepared to defy any court order?”

Pikoli said he failed to understand this as they were not acting against the police as an institution, but against one individual.

He said Mbeki then asked Chikane to arrange a meeting of the national security cluster and, although he thought he was going to be included, Pikoli was not invited.

Pikoli said that in law there was no obligation to inform the president of the new developments, but given the seriousness of the matter, he wanted to tell Mbeki.

Difficult questions
Earlier, Pikoli said that he and Selebi wept together at a meeting during which Pikoli questioned Selebi about criminal allegations against him.

”My meeting … was not an easy meeting for discussions with the national commissioner,” he said

”Because, there I was, sitting with the national commissioner. I have known him from my days in exile, I worked closely with him when I was director general of justice, and now I had to ask him difficult questions based on allegations against him.

”I asked him about money he is supposed to have received and channelled through several accounts,” Pikoli said.

”He denied [it] and he was convincing. At the time I believed him. I cried in that meeting. He cried in that meeting. For me it was a cry of relief because I never believed that he could be facing accusations of that nature.

”We cried on each other’s shoulders in that meeting and I told him that I believed him when he said he never received the money.”

Pikoli began his testimony by saying he had not been suspended on September 23 last year owing to a breakdown in relations with Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development Brigitte Mabandla, but rather because he ignored an ordered to stop the investigation into Selebi.

Selebi, who is on special leave, has made two court appearances in relation to allegations that he received money from drug trafficker and Brett Kebble murder accused Glenn Agliotti.

The initial indictment against Selebi contains allegations of corruption and defeating the ends of justice. He is due to go on trial in April 2008. — Sapa