“This is what the French money has paid for!” jokes Deputy President Jacob Zuma, waving his hand over Oliver Tambo House, his official residence. In a rare interview Zuma spoke to Mail & Guardian reporter Vicki Robinson about a range of issues — but refused to be drawn on the Schabir Shaik trial.
President Thabo Mbeki recently designated you watchdog over the “second economy”. The government has been widely criticised for failing to deliver to poor people — how do you plan to make a difference?
I’m not certain whether there is a new role. There was serious discussion at a Cabinet lekgotla last year, where we acknowledged that the government needs a clearer strategy to deal with the second economy that extends beyond, for example, the Expanded Public Works Programme and black economic empowerment. It is important to stress that this is not something that has happened suddenly — it a responsibility I was asked to assume last year. My role is really to coÂordinate government departments, particularly the economic departments responsible for meshing the first and second economies. Once we have formulated a strategy, we will identify what we need in terms of resources. The problem is that when people read about such things in the media, they believe I am going to be a philosopher, a theoretician, a philanthropist.
Do you think you have been a good steward of the South African National Aids Council? It has, for example, been criticised for only meeting four times last year.
I think that we have done our best. The establishment of the council was an advanced step that the government took to elucidate its policies and synergise the various sectors involved in HIV/Aids work in the country. I think we have succeeded in harmonising the approach to HIV/Aids in the country and there is more than 90% to 95% awareness in the country about the disease now.
Do you believe that figure?
Absolutely. What we now need to do is change people’s behaviour.
What is the purpose of the moral regeneration programme? Everybody talks about it but few people understand it. Is it about corruption? Are we talking about morality in public ethics, about allowing religion back into government, about sex, abstinence, homosexuality?
I don’t think it’s about sex; sex is as old as man [laughs]. The programme was built on the premise that the apartheid system undermined the values and morals of nation-building. We want to create a society where the value that underpinned my upbringing — that anybody’s child is my child — is regenerated. Today the attitude exists where if it is not my child, I don’t care. The moral regeneration programme allows each and every sector to give its own interpretation and act in their own way. For example, the churches will look at it from their spiritual point of view, the traditional leaders will look at it from their traditional point of view. It must have a national character that is all-encompassing.
Won’t a campaign involving so many disparate sectors become unwieldy?
Not at all. I am the patron of the programme and coordinate it at the national level, while the initiative for regenerative activities happens at the local level.
When is the election likely to be held in Burundi, and do you think peace is likely to hold in such a conflict-ridden region?
About August 19. There is a will to sustain the peace and the region has taken the decision to monitor it. But I think more than that, you have a movement on the continent that is anti-violent, anti-unconstitutional government, which will no longer allow a violent system to thrive. There is a growing collective understanding that any problem in another country on the continent affects us all.
Do you want to be president of South Africa?
[Laughs.] In the ANC culture we do not put our names forward, we do not tout ourselves. It is the ANC that decides who should lead the party. Once ANC members reach an agreement, they then approach you and say they want to nominate you. It is at that point you can either accept or decline. You don’t go around saying, “I want to be the president.”
If you are approached, will you say yes?
[Laughs.] If the ANC approaches me, it will mean that they have confidence in me and they think I can do the job — the matter is discussed at that point. We do not discuss it until that approach is made. I could say “yes”, but it is the ANC that makes the moves.
What is your opinion of the view put forward by KwaZulu-Natal Premier S’bu Ndebele that President Thabo Mbeki should serve a third term as president of the ANC? Some people are wary of this, saying it would create two centres of power.
People have expressed their Âopinion on this — but on such matters
we debate them in the right forum and the ANC takes a decision. I can’t stand here and voice a view anyhow — that would be reckless and Âirresponsible leadership.
Let’s look at your future beyond the Schabir Shaik trial — if you become South Africa’s president what will your plan be? Will you move away from a Gear strategy and adopt the kind of state-driven programme Cosatu wants?
[Laughs.] I am deputy president at the moment and what is being done in terms of policy is done with my support. I can see the Mail & Guardian wants a pro-labour president!
How is your relationship with President Mbeki?
He is more than a comrade, he is my brother. We have been together and we share views — we are much closer than people think.
Schabir Shaik said this week that some ANC members and members of big business oppose your presidential candidacy. Who was he referring to?
I hope you’ve asked Schabir [laughs]. Are there people that are against me in the ANC? I don’t think this is an issue because I have not marketed myself in the party as a potential presidential candidate. It is you guys in the media who keep asking the ANC people what they think. [Laughs.]
You have the support of Cosatu, the Communist Party and a groundswell of support among the masses. To them, you represent an alternative to the current economic policy, while Mbeki has a strong relationship with business. Is this a fair characterisation?
I have a touch with business as well! [Laughs.] People support the ANC and at times express that support through specific ANC leaders. But these are people’s perceptions. For example, if I had heeded people’s perceptions about me in the media over the past few years, I should be locked in a maximum prison. We don’t individualise in the ANC.
But politics is a competitive business, isn’t it?
You have opposition to political parties — that is where the competition is, not in the ANC.
Why have you chosen to remain silent throughout the Shaik trial rather than clear your name?
After the trial I will have an opportunity to say something, but it’s a strange call. I was investigated; the investigators said they had no case to take me to court and now people say I must go to court and answer the case. Which case? But when the [Shaik] case is over, I will talk about it.
Are you concerned that the Shaik case has hurt your political credibility, and do you worry that even if he isn’t convicted questions about your integrity will stick?
I would be in court now if there was any question about my integrity. Why then should I worry about people’s perceptions and views — why should I feel guilty and feel that something should stick? There is nothing to stick. It’s a funny thing that people don’t understand this.