Morgan Tsvangirai has been tipped as the next president of Zimbabwe. Rehana Rossouw and Jaspreet Kindra spoke to him about the prospects for a free and fair election next year, famine in Zimbabwe and his exit strategy for President Robert Mugabe
Rehana Rossouw: According to opinion polls, you are going to be president of Zimbabwe in a few months’ time.
Morgan Tsvangirai: Congratulate me after we have crossed that bridge.
RR: I will, I promise. Can you tell us about the survey?
MT: It was done by an organisation called Target Research. It is a private research company. Somebody else asked me: what do you think? I said look, anyone can publish a poll. They may give you indications where you have to strengthen your work. You can’t go around exalted about an opinion poll because, at the end of the day, it is the people who will vote. And you need to continue with the campaign until the final whistle. When the polls show you in a positive light, that’s encouraging. But that’s not the ultimate victory.
RR: What do you think the prospects are for a free and fair election in Zimbabwe next year?
MT: There are serious obstacles to a free and fair election in Zimbabwe at the moment. Let’s look at the institutions. The Electoral Supervisory Commission has no power. A civil servant called the registrar general runs everything.
You literally have no access to the media. In other words, promotion of the process itself is being handicapped by the fact that the media is not promoting even voter registration. People are asking questions: where do we register, what are the requirements, how long is it going to be, what comes next? We believe that 80% to 85% of Zimbabweans want to vote in the forthcoming election, but they will find that there are many obstacles that are being placed in their way.
We also have established the fact that there is a serious disenfranchisement exercise that is taking place: relocating of voters in the urban areas, not registering the first-time voters, the 18- to 22-year-olds are being excluded, not even considering people who are outside Zimbabwe which I think is close to a million voters. So, there’s a lot of people who are being disenfranchised and all with deliberate intention, subverting the ultimate result.
So, as far as the process itself goes … people have not been told what’s going to take place … after registration, what takes place? The dates for voter inspection have not been announced, so preparations will really be constrained. We don’t even have a definitive date for the election. Those are the kinds of things that government departments are very secretive about.
Jaspreet Kindra: Given that the situation is so hostile in Zimbabwe, are you seeking outside intervention?
MT: No, no.
JK: I remember you mentioned to me last year that you were meeting [United Nations Secretary General] Kofi Annan …
MT: Yes, we need international solidarity. We need international support, but ultimately it is Zimbabweans themselves that have to be clear on their paths. Discussions around what South Africa can do, what the international community can do, will only take you so far. There have been so many initiatives that have been embarked upon the Abuja agreement, the Southern African Development Community leadership initiative, the Commonwealth initiative all those initiatives are helpful, but they are not a determining factor. The determining factor is going to come from how committed Zimbabweans will be on election day.
RR: Is there any chance that between now and February next year you may decide that the playing field is so uneven that the Movement for Democratic Change [MDC] could decide not to contest the election?
MT: It’s not an option.
RR: You will contest it, no matter what the conditions …
MT: No matter what the conditions, we will contest. It’s not an option because the people say even if they do beat us, we will have our final say. So, to me it’s not even a leadership option to say we will pull out and we will boycott it.
RR: And then what happens after the election if you find out that 50% of your voters have been intimidated? What can you do afterwards? You would have been part of a flawed process.
MT: It’s a Catch-22 situation. It’s a very unenviable situation to have to ask, do we boycott? If we boycott we have denied people a chance to express themselves. It’s better to go in knowing that the playing field is not level and there are these constraints.
JK: So what can the international community do to assist with this problem? Are you asking for anything?
MT: No, not at the moment. I think as far as the Zimbabwean crisis is concerned, we have raised it to a level of international focus. It is on the international radar. Of course the Afghanistan issue has sort of taken it away and the cancellation of the Commonwealth heads of government meeting has taken it away. I think it has come up again. But I think the crisis has regional as well as international attention.
JK: What is the African National Congress doing to support you? Has its position changed since last year?
MT: When you spoke to me last year their position was very cynical. I think there’s been a significant improvement in relations. And I am satisfied with the level of contact, with the level of exchanges, and their basic understanding of the crisis. Although, of course, they find themselves in a very helpless situation how far they can engage, how far they can ostracise should they decide to take that route. Whichever way they do it, they can’t win. I don’t see them winning if they try to ostracise the Zimbabwean government. So it’s a no-win situation.
RR: Would you be in favour of sanctions or harsh measures against Zimbabwe, given the food and economic crises?
MT: I’ve never taken a position in favour of harsh measures because we know the implications. The government will just turn against the people. So comprehensive sanctions we are opposed to them. We would rather, if anybody wants to take stern measures, that they target the leadership. In other words, targeted sanctions, what they call smart sanctions: travel bans, asset freezing, those kinds of things. The people who are perpetrating this violence are government. Sanctions against the government, of course, we will endorse.
RR: President Robert Mugabe has significant assets in this country. He owns property, he has money in South Africa. Do you know the extent of his personal wealth here?
MT: I’m quite conscious of the fact and it’s not just the president. The whole top echelon of Zanu-PF has nests outside the country.
JK: Have you put pressure on the South African government to freeze their assets?
MT: No, not yet. You see, it’s a very embarrassing situation for the ANC government. They tried, with all pomp and ceremony, to advance this quiet diplomacy, which has not worked. It’s very embarrassing for someone who is promoting a platform for African growth and opportunity, because that initiative will fail or succeed on how the Zimbabwean crisis is dealt with.
RR: If you do become president, or if the MDC has power in Zimbabwe, you’re going to inherit a mess that is not of your own creation. Do you have firm plans to overcome the problems? For instance, what will you do about people who are currently illegally occupying land?
MT: We do have a firm transitional plan. We do have a vision in the plan for how economic and social conditions have to be handled. Let me just give you some of the issues that we have to tackle as a matter of priority.
The first issue is, of course, law and order, and that includes a lot of factors. Mugabe has encouraged the war veterans to commit acts of criminality with impunity. That cannot be tolerated. We need to restore confidence to the country, nationally, so that people feel safe. That’s the first thing.
RR: Will you bring the troops back from the Congo?
MT: Obviously, it goes without saying that a part of our economic strategy in dealing with the fiscal crisis, is to bring back the troops. Anyway, let me go on to the other important issue …
It is vitally important to emphasise that whether it is a Zanu-PF or an MDC government, if it doesn’t finalise this issue of land on a permanent basis, if it doesn’t resolve this issue, it is always sitting on a very serious crisis. So we are all agreed that land reform is imperative. I think that the only difference between us is the method. Zanu-PF has destroyed the economic base of the country using the fast-track land resettlement programme. And therefore it is not sustainable. We are saying, while he is creating space for the landless, you must recognise the contribution of commercial farming to the country’s economic well-being. However, the objective of any land reform should be economic empowerment of the majority of the people. The current land holding is inequitable, we’ll have to deal with that. We’ll have to deal with issues of law and transparency.
As I speak, three-quarters of the so-called land given on fast-track land resettlement has gone to civil servants and war veterans. Not the real people who are supposed to benefit, like peasants. And besides, what Mugabe is championing, to turn everyone into a peasant, it doesn’t work. On that we are very clear. So a land commission will be set up to deal with the land question.
Then, on the economy, that’s a total mess. I want to tell you that it will be an unenviable task to stabilise the situation before we even start talking about growth. Fortunately, there is enough national and international goodwill to give us the breathing space to deal with the debt trap, to deal with foreign currency shortages, and to deal with the bloated administration that has been created.
Those are the things we’ll have to deal with, apart from the fact that we are committing ourselves to a new constitutional dispensation. The current Constitution, where the president appoints 30 people before we even start, is totally unacceptable. It’s undemocratic, it’s unacceptable. Fortunately, there is enough work that has gone into constitutional discussions and the new constitutional dispensation. We will certainly set up a new constitutional order. And because we believe that we have responsibility to revamp the health and education sectors, it becomes a very important social agenda. Health, education and housing are critical issues.
So, yes, we have a plan. We certainly have a plan. We have a transitional plan, which, we believe, should be tested within the first 100 days of MDC rule.
RR: It’s very hard for us South Africans, and I think for Zimbabweans as well, to establish how big a mess the economy is in. Will you be looking to the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and foreign governments for aid in the short-term?
MT: We need as much support as we can get, in terms of grants and in terms of whatever short-term loans one can get. But without necessarily indebting the country in the process again. Because, already, the country is in a debt-trap. So, it’s unavoidable.
RR: Have you had discussions with any of these organisations yet?
MT: Yes, we have. They agree with our plans. We have said we don’t need to negotiate nine months down the line. We need immediate support. Without any delay. Unless we stop the haemorrhage we’ll actually kill the patient. It’s as delicate as that.
JK: Has the South African government been advising you on economic issues?
MT: We have been exchanging information on what’s happened in Zimbabwe and, as far as I’m concerned, to us it’s a very significant shift in opinion and attitude.
JK: Are they providing you with any other assistance?
MT: No.
RR: We have been struggling to understand why our deputy director general of foreign affairs slammed the MDC for receiving funds from Britain. The ANC took money from many governments and a few dictators. Where do you think this attack is coming from?
MT: It’s not an issue. Foreign funding is not an issue. Everyone else is getting foreign funding. The point is to what extent is foreign funding affecting your principles and your policy and your agenda? That’s all. To me it is not an issue, we are all receiving foreign funding: in South Africa, right at the moment there are political organisations receiving foreign funding, so what is the big issue? You want to demonise legitimate support, it cannot happen.
RR: Have you gotten an explanation yet about why that happened? Was it one individual talking nonsense, or a South African government concern?
MT: Well I think it is Zanu-PF which is trying to strengthen its perception that the MDC is a creation of imperialists, of outsiders, whites and all that.
JK: You’ve also been accused in South Africa of being too close to the Democratic Party and that you’re a liberal. Where are you placed ideologically?
MT: We are a social democratic movement, from day one. This ideological underpinning has been set up by our founding congress, by subsequent congresses, by our people they know what it means. But, unfortunately, this Democratic Party/Tony Leon thing is an obsession of the ANC and the politicians here. It has nothing to do with Zimbabwe.
RR: But now the Democratic Alliance has split, and the ANC is preparing to form a new alliance with the New National Party sector of the DA. How do you feel about that, considering that you were attacked for being too close to the same people?
MT: I am really astounded that the champions of apartheid are now in bed with the ANC. The MDC was demonised for allegedly being too close to the DA. And yet, what is emerging in South Africa is probably a healthy development insofar as non-racial politics is concerned. Hopefully, that can be sustained. We are a non-racial, non-ethnic party, not a front for whites.
South African politics is obsessed with race. We are not like that in Zimbabwe.
RR: How bad are the food shortages? We have very little information about the extent of the problem. How do you estimate whether your country is facing a famine or not? Do you see hungry people, are there more beggars on the streets?
MT: I go out in the rural areas and visit people. What the MDC has established is that we probably need 800 000 tonnes of maize and 150 000 tonnes of wheat. This shortage has come about because of two causes: the disruption of farm production and the lack of payment by the District Development Fund to the small-scale farmers last year. So when the season came they just planted for their own consumption. We also had a drought in the southern provinces.
The reality is that we have a serious food deficit, which the government was denying until the MDC raised the fact in April this year. Now they are running around trying to seek international support. But it may be too late. Because there is a lack of capacity to meet those kinds of challenges. We don’t have a railway system that is going to move those hundreds of thousands of tonnes of food within a short period of time.
RR: And what do you think of Zanu-PF’s decree that NGOs cannot distribute the food?
MT: Once your government puts those kinds of conditions, those who will give you the support will say as long as you use it for partisan purposes we will not give you the food. Period. We have said there should be no Zanu-PF or MDC to distribute the food. Let’s find non-partisan methods that are going to benefit the hungry. But [Minister of State for Information and Publicity] Jonathan Moyo wants to exploit the plight of the people for political purposes.
JK: He, in fact, denied last month that there was a food shortage, he said that it was the creation of the imperialist press.
MT: I think he has lost it. I think it is sad.
RR: What do you see when you visit rural areas? Children with bloated stomachs, people presenting at hospitals with kwashiorkor?
MT: At the moment the communities, in true African culture, are still helping each other. It might reach the stage soon where they will need help.
RR: Do you think this will be the worst food shortage in Zimbabwe?
MT: It is already the worst, in terms of poverty, in terms of economic deprivation. The inflation in the country is ridiculous. You give someone Z$50 000, it is nothing.
RR: And yet in the budget presented to government last month, the Central Intelligence Organisation was given a massive increase in allocation. Why do you think this is?
MT: This is an election budget, so all resources must be given to Zanu-PF through different allocations. Gender, youth, employment, the president’s office, defence parastatals all these got more. If we calculate how much money is at the disposal of Zanu-PF, it’s outrageous.
RR: Aren’t you nervous? Why do you think the government gave its secret service so much money?
MT: We can expect a number of very serious attempts to divide the MDC. Through buying people, through interference with our operations as a party, it takes various forms. We don’t underestimate the fact that this government is determined.
RR: You’ve already got detentions, raids on MDC offices, newspapers being continually harassed. Are you expecting more direct oppression?
MT: We expect that the MDC will experience a lot of destabilisation. A lot of harassment, intimidation, even murder. So various officials of the MDC at various levels may be sitting ducks, may be assassination targets.
JK: You are not going to have inde- pendent monitors for the election, so anything can happen. Are you mobilising international support to get independent monitors for the election?
MT: We are trying to get international observers to come, at least two months before the election. But without a date, how do we organise this? We know it could be between February 6 and March 17. But the good thing is that the people are aware of the risk.
RR: I have to ask you a personal question. Are you nervous about the prospect of becoming president and the challenges you might face in that position?
MT: I have never been nervous. In all my life I have never been nervous. I am conscious of the burden of responsibility that we would have to face. We have enough capacity in the MDC to face this challenge. We have enough experience to deal with these issues. We hope people will know that it will not be a situation where they will wake one morning and expect a change overnight. We continue to appeal to people to be patient while we repair all this damage. But I have no doubt in my mind that we will live up to this challenge.
JK: How do you cope with the fact that you do not have the same access to media as Zanu-PF?
MT: Well, we use our own means of communication direct contact with our people. We use communities, churches, civic organisations, trade unions, chiefs, local traditional leaders. In fact, Mugabe has not realised the extent to which he has lost support, even in the rural areas. His patronage system has got its limitations.
RR: If you win the election, are you prepared to give him a big fat pension, let him keep a grand home, continue to pay for his staff and luxury cars?
MT: Actually, this is a very vexing question. What is stopping this man from retiring? It’s probably the fear of reprisals. I’ve said on several occasions we have no intention of engaging in any act of retribution. He doesn’t believe us. I don’t know who else can give him that assurance. We want to focus on the future and forget about that man. If we can move the country forward by doing so, we will do that. But we must never forget that there are victims of his actions, either by omission or by commission. He is responsible for a lot of suffering.
JK: I have seen South African intelligence reports indicating he was willing to step down if he was perceived to have done something good for the country. How true is that?
MT: Yes, he wants to be the founding father. You know, every child cries out for a father. I’m sure that Zimbabweans would like to have a founding father for their country. Unfortunately, he destroyed that legacy. The damage is not anybody’s fault but his.