Your recent national conference called for better and stronger relations with social movements. What prompted this change in attitude?
The Congress of South African Trade Unions [Cosatu] firmly believes in the unity of the working class and poor. Social movements are important and we must work with them. But many comrades in Cosatu feel that social movements, such as the Anti-Privatisation Forum [APF], too readily want to attack them. Because we are in an alliance with the African National Congress does not mean that we should be lumped together with them at every turn. We are an independent organisation and when necessary we criticise the ANC, as we have done many times.
Why do you still believe an alliance with the ANC is necessary for Cosatu when you have been undermined and weakened by the ANC government’s economic policies?
We believe that the alliance with the ANC is necessary, particularly at the level of government. We make inputs into various pieces of important legislation in Parliament, much of which we have positively influenced. The one area we have not made any real progress is in finance and the Treasury. In the Treasury some technocrats, led by the minister, sit down and make decisions. We want this serious matter to be discussed and debated in Parliament because it affects achieving social-delivery objectives. You cannot determine the financial policies of our country by excluding its people and the major players, such as Cosatu.
On economic policy I agree that we have been hurt and marginalised. Present policies are just plain neo-liberal and wrong. We don’t agree with them and certainly it has taken us back. After all these years, the unemployment rate is more than 40%, even if the minister disputes the statistics. The reality of the growth, employment and redistribution [Gear] strategy is that it has not assisted us. Many targets set in 1996 have still not been achieved.
Are you able to assert your independence and take militant action when necessary?
Cosatu needs to be very strong because no government, however progressive, will take us seriously if we are not. That is why we must develop policies that strengthen rather than weaken us. We must be strong to maximise our influence and impact within the alliance. The alliance has not worked properly for years, depriving us of opportunities to intervene and shape policies. However, the government’s decision to delay or abandon privatisation of certain state assets is mainly because of our interventions.
Why have Cosatu and the South African Communist Party not waged concerted and consistent campaigns against both Gear and the iGoli 2002 plan, which privatised and commercialised basic services for the city of Johannesburg?
Since 1996 we have said that Gear is wrong and we have challenged aspects, such as privatisation, but we have not campaigned as strongly as we should have.
But this does not mean that we were constrained by the alliance. We did not take this matter up vigorously because the APF took it up and we did not want to be associated with them. That was a major weakness. If we had come together with the APF and used all our strength, we would have won the battle against iGoli.
Why does Cosatu not simply break away from the alliance?
Members of Cosatu decide at national congresses to remain in the alliance. It is not leadership who makes this decision. It is a fact that we have not been strong enough in the alliance. But if Cosatu had to break from the alliance two things would happen. Firstly, we would not have the opportunity to have an influence on legislation and policy at governmental level, however limited, because then we would face an extremely hostile situation.
Secondly, if we break from the alliance and become just a trade union federation outside the formal political arena we could risk serious isolation. That could finish us off, because there is so much overlapping membership between the alliance partners.
The ANC is still seen as the main organisation that liberated workers from apartheid. To split from this party of Mandela is not easy.
Is it really possible to change the balance of power in the alliance in favour of a pro-poor and working-class bias, given the ANC’s stance?
We have resolved to do a number of things. We need to build and strengthen the organisation, educate members, build relevant campaigns, and make sure that we are able to effectively service our existing members and actively recruit new members. Our aim is to grow our membership by 10% annually and reverse the membership losses we have suffered over the past few years. We have launched a national recruitment campaign in all sectors — the stronger Cosatu is the stronger it will be in the alliance.
Is Cosatu stuck in an abusive relationship?
[Laughs]. Yes, we may at times be battered, but we are determined to strengthen our role in the alliance. There are different social and class forces in the ANC contesting its political and policy direction. These battles are far from over, contrary to what many critics think. Cosatu’s aim is to win the battles so that the working class becomes the dominant force. Capitalist interests in the ANC must be challenged so that we win, in the interests of our members and the broad working class.
We will continue to stand our ground and try to win the battles. It is hard but it’s necessary.
You’re abused and then the ANC wants your votes in elections …
[More laughter.] It is true that there has been such a pattern over the years. In our 10-a-side meetings and in our own CEC [central executive committee] we have said that we appear to be electoral cannon fodder for the ANC and demanded that it be addressed. We are also taking this matter to the alliance summit this month where we hope it can be resolved. But if we don’t agree to vote for the ANC, who do we vote for? If we don’t vote for the ANC we have to vote either for apartheid parties or other small and ineffectual parties.
Is the APF filling the vacuum left by the disintegration of the South African National Civic Association [Sanco] and the failure of both Cosatu and the SACP to address issues around basic services?
Yes. Sanco does not exist in many areas. I know that I am going to be unpopular here because Sanco is an alliance partner, but when you go to the ground Sanco is not there. Our members are already talking about residents’ organisations which will take up issues such as the commercialisation of services, water and electricity. You have seen the recent uprisings by poor people in some parts of the country because of lack of access to basic services. But Cosatu has not done well in challenging the privatisation of basic services.
Are members of Cosatu becoming more critical about the alliance?
That is the reality. The development in the analysis and thinking of workers is growing. As leaders we must not try to curtail such developments. We must allow critical discussion. This is a new thing. People have religiously followed leaders before, but now more critical debates and interventions are -taking place.