How do you think the two centres of power conundrum will be resolved this year?
This is not the first time the ANC is in a situation where its president is a different person from that of the republic. From 1997 to 1999 we went through a similar transition. The difference then was that Madiba voluntarily stepped down and handed over power to comrade Thabo [Mbeki], who was his deputy in government at the time.
But this question must be placed in perspective. The president is the head of a leadership collective — the national executive committee — and subject to its will. For example, we have 14 members of the Cabinet on the NEC [national executive committee]. Sometimes people speak as though we have a ruling party which is outside of government. In fact, the NEC resolved last Friday that the president of the republic should sit in meetings of the national working committee and the NEC. That goes a long way to address possible concerns that exist. I don’t anticipate that we will have any serious problems.
Do you think you are going to be redeployed to the deputy presidency of the country?
It all depends because we have not had an exhaustive discussion about it and it depends on what the purpose is. Another question is whether that happens before the election. But if the sole purpose is to gain insight into the workings of government, could that not be gained by simply having scheduled sessions with the director general, with the president and others? Does it necessarily have to be gained by one going into Cabinet? But if there is a cogent political argument for me to move into the deputy presidency, I will.
There has also been media speculation that such a move could be calculated to counter the dominance of the ”Mbeki camp” in the Cabinet. Any comments?
I think that is plainly incorrect politics. I don’t know about ”camps”. The media have blown up this thing about camps. There are no homogenous camps. Even within these camps there can be many differences about many things. It is one thing to have a lobby group in the run-up to conference and elections, but once elections have taken place there is one leadership and that is it.
What people also don’t know, perhaps, is that after an election, when Cabinet members are appointed and the president speaks to them, one on one, I sit in those meetings because it is the ANC that contests elections, it is the ANC that wins elections and it is the ANC that appoints ministers, otherwise I would not have authority over them.
As deputy president of the ANC, if Zuma is found guilty and goes to prison, would you be ready to take his place and ipso facto the presidency of the country in 2009?
Well, that is really a daunting thought, but as a loyal and disciplined member of the ANC I will rise to the challenge if and when the time comes.
Many commentators said that you were the man of the moment in Polokwane. They said that your open, frank and courageous report and interventions increased your stature in the party. Your comments?
Look, all I tried to do was deliver a report as honestly as I could. As for my interventions they were simply based on my duties in terms of the constitution of the ANC and specifically the rules of conference.
Aside from the merits of the case against Zuma, how feasible, practical and wise is it for him to continue as president — because he faces many charges, which are going to take up a lot of his time and therefore seriously affect his work?
That’s the reality we have to live with now because the ANC has decided on the matter and that is the way democracy works. So we cannot quarrel with that. We have to learn how to deal with the practical challenges that arise out of this reality. If he is found guilty then it will be a different story. The constitution of the ANC says that the role of the deputy is to deputise the president.
There is speculation that one possible scenario is that if there were a worsening of relations, the ”Zuma camp” may push for a parliamentary vote of no confidence in Mbeki and call for an early election. Is that possible?
That is mere speculation. We will not do that. The ANC is one organisation with one membership. It elected Mbeki in 1997, re-elected him in 2002 but did not re-elect him in 2007.
There are reports of anxiety among some MPs following Polokwane, worrying about their jobs. Your comments?
Nobody needs to be anxious about anything because the voting at conference is by secret ballot and nobody knows who voted for whom. So regardless of how members voted they remain members of the ANC and the elected leadership leads all of them, without exception. In Parliament the only changes that are going to happen is that the NEC has decided that positions such as chief whip of the majority party and chair of caucus must be occupied by its members.
In his speech on January 12 Zuma attacked the media. Seen against the background of repeated ANC attacks against the media, are you not concerned by these developments?
Like every section of our society, the media has its own weaknesses. As an example, the SABC [South African Broadcasting Corporation] is supposed to be an independent public broadcaster, but it played a very factional role in the internal elections campaign of the ANC. They actually literally banned some of us. We were never interviewed, given airtime and so on. And these are journalists. But we don’t say the whole media is like that.