‘In the ANC there is always a tomorrow’

In his first interview since his inauguration, President Kgalema Motlanthe spoke to Ebrahim Harvey about his reaction to his sudden elevation to power, the state of the African National Congress (ANC) and his plans for the seven months before the election.

How do you feel about your sudden ascendancy to the presidency?
When I was told about it I had to draw on my innermost resources to accept an immense challenge. But leadership also means achieving results from what others have made possible. I take my strength from the knowledge that this country has an abundance of talent: if we draw on that in a non-partisan manner we can make this country great.

Were you not surprised by how dramatically the political situation has changed?
Many people have asked me if things could not have worked out differently, meaning that former president Thabo Mbeki should have served out his term. Though one is left with the feeling that things could indeed have turned out differently, we have to now work with what has happened rather than moan about what ideally should have happened. Due to certain developments, the [ANC’s] NEC [national executive committee] decision to recall Mbeki overturned an earlier one that he should see this term through.

At the Polokwane conference you said you had no presidential ambitions.
Well, personal views count for naught once collective decisions are taken, but those were my honest views.

How did you view the resignation of many of Mbeki’s ministers?
Because I am in the Cabinet some of them indicated to me in advance that they would not continue serving, because of advanced age and so on. Others indicated they would resign as a matter of principle because the Nicholson judgement in a way implicates certain Cabinet ministers. Some thought about continuing pending the outcome of the appeal, but I think they had doubts about that course of action. The ideal thing for stability would certainly have been for them to stay, but we have to respect their decision.

You told me in a recent interview that there are no Mbeki and Zuma factions in the ANC. Surely these resignations confirm such factions, at least at leadership level?
What I meant was that those who continue to claim that their actions can be attributed to Mbeki and Zuma factions are misleading the media. Both Zuma and Mbeki made statements and produced a document in which they dispelled the notion of these factions. Some people have been spreading talk of these factions as a cover for their own hidden agendas.

Could Mbeki have done more to persuade ministers not to resign?
Well, I was present in Cabinet when he made an appeal to ministers not to resign. He actually said to them that they have not resigned by simply submitting their letters, because he still had to consider them. But I think he had no choice because his own term was at an end and if he could not dissuade them, he had to accept.

Won’t it be difficult to create a united Cabinet from new and inexperienced ministers?
No, I don’t think it will be a serious problem because most of the ministers and deputies were appointed in my presence, when I was [ANC] secretary general, so I have a good sense of their capabilities and political judgement. They will work well with the inexperienced ministers or their deputies, who themselves have also over the years played important roles in Parliament in various committees.

What will be your priorities over the next seven months?
First thing is to try to make sure that our 2004 election manifesto has been implemented by the end of this term. This government was elected to office on the basis of a manifesto in which we made certain promises. We may not be able to meet all our promises but we must try. We will also ensure that our commitments to the 2010 World Cup are fully met. We should be in a position at the end of this term to have laid a solid foundation for the next administration. When people look back at this term, this past few weeks’ problems will hopefully seem a bad hiccup which does not tarnish the whole term.

We also need to draw important lessons from this term, one of which is that it is not helpful to solve problems by following methods which created those problems in the first place. For example, the judge in Schabir Shaik’s trial made adverse comments and inferences about Zuma, who was not on trial. Judge Nicholson made similarly adverse comments about Mbeki, who was not on trial. In both cases this trend created huge problems.

Isn’t it going to be difficult to combine presidential duties with a leading role in preparing the ANC for the elections?
Fortunately, the president of the ANC — the public face and the party’s candidate for the presidency — will be free to lead our campaign. We’ll have the necessary division of labour in the ANC to ensure the campaign succeeds.

Aren’t you concerned about the lack of unity in the ANC before the elections?
A lot depends on practice. Practice and the example set by ANC leaders in the run-up to the elections is much more important than precept.

Aren’t you concerned about the serious divisions in the Western Cape ANC? Isn’t the ANC quite likely to lose the province, considering the unhappiness following Ebrahim Rasool’s forced resignation?
The secretary general of the ANC is alive to those challenges and I think he’s paying close attention to the steps that need to be taken to ensure the ANC is successful. [Rasool’s departure] will make the task of the ANC a bit more difficult, but with enough effort we can still pull it off. In the Western Cape we’ve been the biggest minority. Besides, a plethora of parties is going to campaign for the support of the voters we’re targeting. The results are likely to be very dispersed. We may again have a hung legislature, demanding coalitions.

A Markinor survey this week shows that the ANC and DA are neck and neck among urban voters.
The ANC’s national performance is the aggregate of the performances in the provinces. I think there is likely to be a repetition in most of the key provinces of the huge support the ANC has always enjoyed. But there are provinces where it may be very difficult to increase past percentages. For example, in Gauteng we may be challenged. In KwaZulu-Natal I think the ANC will do better than in the past.

Hasn’t the image of the ANC suffered severe damage, particularly because of the court cases?
No, because the rights of citizens to have recourse to the courts if they feel aggrieved — whoever they might be — must be respected. It’s part and parcel of our democratic order. Mbeki also has a right to object to whatever aggrieves him in the judgement. So it does not necessarily follow that these problems severely damage the image of the ANC. Rather, I think they are — though the manner in which some of these things has happened may be undesirable — a healthy sign at the political level of a growing, maturing, engaging and vigorous democracy.

What are the main reasons why the ANC has landed itself in such a mess on so many fronts?
It’s the result of the convergence of a lot of different factors. One is clearly the perception by some leaders that they’ve been ill-treated. When this perception is reinforced by certain developments it can accumulate until you reach a point where leaders have to focus on issues objectively and you don’t know how much subjective factors become dominant.

There’s speculation that a breakaway party could be formed. Are you concerned?
No, I really don’t believe there is much substance to these stories. I don’t believe any of the ministers who are steeped in ANC traditions of struggle will sign up for a breakaway party. But even if there was a breakaway party I don’t think it could challenge the presently ruling ANC. Instead, if there are disgruntled leaders they should draw the correct lessons from the past few years and use that to rebuild the ANC into the powerful mass movement it always was. In the ANC there is always a tomorrow. We will prevail.

You praised Mbeki in your inaugural speech. Were you being diplomatic?
I’ve no doubt Mbeki made some great and valuable contributions to this country and the African continent. He certainly raised the stature of Africa on the world stage and must take credit for that.

You were once close to him. What was the turning point in your relationship?
Well, I have throughout remained close to him, even through the email saga and after Zuma was dismissed. The fact is that it did not seriously affect our relationship; we’ve always felt we could call each other about any matter. No matter what the issues are, I try to avoid unnecessary acrimony between leaders. We need more maturity, level-headedness and far-sightedness in relations.

Was Mbeki sulking when he failed to attend your swearing-in ceremony?
He was one of the first people who called to congratulate me. So I didn’t read much into his absence at my inauguration.

Some ANC leaders, particularly after Mbeki’s defeat in Polokwane, suddenly discovered that there were problems with his leadership. Weren’t they being opportunistic?
It may be wrong to label such people opportunists when they later see the light. Instead it could be a process of learning, growth and development. Some may not have been convinced about the correctness of any position or did not have the courage of their convictions or went along willy-nilly. Politics is complex.

In your inaugural speech you said there will be no policy shifts because the present policies have served the government well. But most people are languishing in increasing poverty, unemployment­ and inequality.
Policy change — if it is necessary and democratically determined — is not an overnight thing. It would be impractical to talk of any policy change in seven months.

Your leftist allies focus on the problems with the kind of policies government has, rather than on faster implementation.
My impression is that the Congress of South African Trade Unions (Cosatu) and the South African Communist Party are happy with the policies adopted in Polokwane. This government is tasked with implementing the ANC’s manifesto for the 2004 elections — the policies in that manifesto were influenced by those proposed at ANC policy conferences and at ANC national conferences. The policies now in place have to be seen through for this term.

We all recognise that a great deal still has to be done. The fact that 12-million of our people are recipients of grants is not sustainable; for their own dignity it’s much better if people have decent jobs. When we say the government has done much, we’re saying it has responded by giving relief, which is an achievement.

Cosatu’s attitude towards fiscal surpluses is a matter to be debated at the alliance’s economic summit. But the reality is that if we had not followed that policy I don’t think we would have survived the current inflationary impacts. It has also somewhat saved us from the full impact of the financial and credit crisis in the United States and other parts of the world.

Social movements complain about the commercialisation of basic services and thousands of township protests are linked to these problems. Isn’t a policy review necessary?
Those things that have not worked and created such serious problems for poor households will have to be revised. If this country is to succeed we have to draw on the available skills, talents and experience of all our people. The country will be greatly enriched by a more open, democratic and participatory approach to these sensitive policy matters.

Will these major policy differences not continue to afflict the ANC alliance before and especially after the elections?
Through the alliance secretariat all the allies are tasked with preparing discussion documents for the alliance economic summit. The manifesto-drafting process is also a very participatory process. Therein lies the opportunity for them to shape policies. Once the manifestos are launched the incoming ANC government is compelled to implement its provisions. But remember: policy formulation is sometimes hamstrung by lack of capacity.

Does your trade-union background make you more sympathetic to the policy demands and wishes of these allies?
No. The question is whether the policies they want to pursue are feasible, necessary and valid.

A shower of a different kind
Twenty minutes into my interview with President Kgalema Motlanthe, in the garden of his new presidential home in Johannesburg, the sprinklers all around us suddenly started up. In seconds we were soaked.

And during, the interview itself, he was quite free of pomposity and swagger. I certainly have my differences with him. But within the serious limits of the policy regime he has inherited, I believe you could not find a better and more inspiring person to lead the country. — Ebrahim Harvey