Charles Molele spoke to ANC veteran Ben Turok about tensions in the ruling party ahead of Julius Malema’s disciplinary committee hearing.
How do you view the disciplinary charges against Julius Malema and his fellow leaders?
I’d rather not comment; the matter is still under investigation and therefore sub judice.
But you do have an opinion on ill-discipline among members and how the ANC deals with it?
The ANC constitution on misconduct is clear. Rule 25 says all members must abide by the constitution of the ANC and the rules and regulations — as well as policies and decisions properly adopted in terms of the constitution. Every member is instructed and knows the rules, including the youth league. So what happened [with Malema] was properly considered.
Zuma and his top leadership have been criticised for being weak and indecisive in acting against corruption, ill-discipline and misconduct.
The ANC tradition is to cure the illness to save the patient. It’s an old Chinese proverb. The tradition of ubuntu is to try to help the individual overcome misconduct and, in branches, sometimes a great deal of effort goes into dealing with it. Resorting to the disciplinary code is unusual. The whole organisation, from top to bottom, is rather generous to people who break the rules. It’s the culture of the ANC. Sometimes this generosity is irritating; sometimes a member becomes a nuisance. One can be critical, but it’s also a strength because the ANC is very inclusive and tolerant of difference.
What is your view of what happened outside Luthuli House last week, when some league members burnt Jacob Zuma T-shirts and ANC posters?
There are two ANCs: the one portrayed in the media and the one on the ground, in branches where poor, hardworking people are still the same as [those] I met when I joined 50 years ago. Honest people with integrity, loyalty and commitment to the Freedom Charter. There may be criticism of the leader, but the loyalty is strong. You do find criticism of some government policy, or of unemployment, black economic empowerment, enrichment, corruption — the membership is not blind to conditions in the country. Notwithstanding that, they are loyal and well behaved. I’ve experienced no hostility, even though they know I’m an MP.
The youth league and pro-Malema voices in the ANC claim the current leadership is becoming autocratic and indifferent to critical thinking on issues such as nationalisation.
I’m the editor of the journal New Agenda and I feel free, but my criticism is always balanced and responsible. If I want to discuss nationalisation or anything else, it should be done without personal attacks or condemning the movement. It’s not criticism that’s the problem, it’s the way it’s done. It’s not only the youth league which is very personal and goes for name-calling. It’s unhelpful.
There are clandestine meetings and wheeling and dealing behind the scenes ahead of the Mangaung conference. When is the appropriate time to open the succession debate?
I’m aware that lists are being passed around and factions are promoting individuals, but this is bad. I think we should allow full debate of individual merit. Candidates should be interviewed in a collective so that the best one is chosen. The election of a leadership should be truly democratic. In ancient Greece, when city states wanted to elect a military leader or governor, their virtues or weaknesses were discussed in public. Why can’t we do that?
Hardly a day goes by without reports of greed and personal enrichment among ANC officials. What causes this?
There’s no question that the middle and business classes have risen in South Africa. They’re trying to get access in many ways that aren’t desirable. They need to be scrutinised [to see] whether their conduct is in terms of ANC tradition. We should ask: are they loyal to the new South Africa and its aspirations? I refer especially to conspicuous consumption and the way they seek enrichment. There are too many stories of corrupt behaviour.