Former Independent Directorate Against Corruption head Andrea Johnson regularly met suspended police minister Senzo Mchunu while the directorate was investigating Crime Intelligence officers, Idac prosecutor Drushanta Ramsamy has told the Madlanga commission.
“[W]hat made me alert to the fact that the meetings with the minister were common or regular was that advocate Johnson said to the team: 'The minister wants to clean up SAPS. He wants us to clean up SAPS, Crime Intelligence specifically,'" Ramsamy said.
She said Johnson had frequently referred to meetings with Mchunu while directing the investigation.
Ramsamy recalled Johnson telling investigators that she had attended a meeting at Mchunu's home, where she left her cellphone with her protection officers and waited with his chief of staff, Cedrick Nkabinde, before meeting the minister.
She further alleged that Mchunu and Johnson initiated a report about Nkabinde, which would incriminate him in a criminal investigation.
Ramsamy also testified that a key witness in the investigation into Crime Intelligence head Lieutenant General Dumisani Khumalo and other senior officers had been flown in from the Eastern Cape by Mchunu.
The witness was expected to corroborate the allegations National Coloured Congress MP Fadiel Adams made against Khumalo and other senior Crime Intelligence officials.
She said Nkabinde had arranged for the witness to meet senior Idac investigator Dylan Perumal to provide a statement.
"It seemed strange to me that Minister Mchunu would be involved in this investigation but Mr Perumal did not offer any further details regarding the minister's involvement."
Ramsamy said Perumal had described the witness as crucial to allegations that Crime Intelligence had improperly used the secret service account to procure a forklift. He had reportedly referred to the witness's evidence as "gold" and arranged a follow-up interview for 20 January 2025.
"I took it to mean that Mr Perumal considered the evidence to be supportive of the allegations of criminal conduct regarding the procurement of the forklift," she said.
Adams's complaint alleged that Crime Intelligence had used the secret service account to purchase a forklift. He also alleged that covert funds allocated to the Political Killings Task Team were used to purchase vehicles and property, some allegedly benefiting former police minister Bheki Cele.
The complaint implicated Khumalo, Crime Intelligence chief financial officer Nozipho Lushaba and suspended national police commissioner Fannie Masemola.
Ramsamy said she had been unaware that police inspectorate head Peter Jacobs was providing Mchunu with updates every 10 days on the progress of Adams's criminal complaints, which had been opened at seven police stations in the Western Cape and Gauteng.
"I mention this because it seemed that minister Mchunu's involvement was more than just receiving updates from the inspectorate on Mr Adams's criminal complaints," she said.
Ramsamy, Perumal and Mantsha Raphesu had interviewed the witness again on 20 January 2025. However, she said the evidence had ultimately fallen short of Perumal's earlier assessment.
"Mr Perumal previously informed us that the evidence of the witness was 'gold' but my assessment of the witness's evidence was that it was largely hearsay and speculative."
She added that Perumal had later informed the team that the Hawks were investigating the forklift allegations and that Idac should not pursue that aspect of the case further.