Alleged criminal kingpin Vusimuzi "Cat" Matlala refused to explain his relationships with senior police officials and instead turned the tables on KZN police commissioner Lieutenant General Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi over their highly clandestine meeting.
Mkhwanazi was one of the few senior police officials Matlala was willing to admit meeting, while claiming that the KwaZulu-Natal police boss was the one who told him about people of interest in the criminal underworld.
During his cross-examination by evidence leaders Mahlape Sello and Adila Hassim, Matlala declined to comment on how he knew several high-profile police officers, invoking his right not to incriminate himself during his three days of testimony before the commission.
Matlala said he could not answer many of the commission's questions because of the pending criminal matters against him, including the Medicare24 irregular contract and attempted murder case, as well as ongoing investigations into the blue-light controversy and the alleged gifting of impalas.
Although Matlala initially said he could not discuss his meeting with Mkhwanazi, sustained questioning led him to argue that doing so would reveal parts of his criminal defence strategy.
"I don't have a way to explain it to you because I will end up disclosing part of our defence strategy. This is a crucial part which I think led to my arrest. Like I said before, I don't want to comment further on this part," Matlala said.
However, he used his testimony to give his version of his meeting with Mkhwanazi.
Matlala accused Mkhwanazi of volunteering the names of the late Jotham "King Mswati" Msibi and Steven Motsumi, who have been alleged to be leaders of the so-called Big Five cartel.
He also said Mkhwanazi was the person who had told him about the alleged corrupt dealings of deputy national police commissioner Shadrack Sibiya.
Commission chairperson Mbuyiseli Madlanga asked: "Did you give General Mkhwanazi any names?"
"No," replied Matlala.
He insisted that Mkhwanazi was the one who raised the names of Motsumi and Sibiya.
Hassim said Matlala's version contradicted Mkhwanazi's previous testimony before parliament's ad hoc committee.
Mkhwanazi testified that retired KwaZulu-Natal Hawks boss Lesetja Senona, who admitted to having a "brotherly" relationship with Matlala, had arranged the meeting at the Pearl Hotel in uMhlanga.
"That's when he then gave me this information. The information is about Steve Motsumi.
"Steve Motsumi is a name that the 68 million people, excluding the independent podcasters, have the guts to talk about. The rest of the media houses in South Africa do not want to research that person.
"It is a name that has come up so many times," Mkhwanazi told the committee.
Matlala, however, said he had approached Mkhwanazi because he needed assistance with his R360 million Medicare24 contract and wanted the KwaZulu-Natal police commissioner to connect him with SAPS human resources head Lineo Nkhuoa.
"The first thing that I need to bring to your attention is that General Mkhwanazi already had information. So he was just asking me if I knew about what he knows.
"I went there because of my tender complaints and then he asked me about all these things," said Matlala.
Mkhwanazi's testimony before the ad hoc committee was that Matlala had approached him as a witness seeking protection.
He said Matlala had been the one who had told him that Motsumi was making regular payments to Sibiya.
"He told me about the activities of Sibiya. How Sibiya is collecting money. He told me about the property of Sibiya that I did not know. He gave me the address.
"He told me about the impalas he bought for Sibiya. This is all coming from Cat voluntarily. I did not have a clue about all these things," Mkhwanazi told the committee.
Matlala conceded that he had known Sibiya had been allegedly collecting money but said he had not known who had been paying him.
He said he had heard from a third party that Sibiya was being paid.
"I already said that I do not know if Mr Motsumi was giving General Sibiya money. So I cannot say something I do not know," Matlala said.
He identified the third party as Sergeant Fannie Nkosi, whom he said acted as an intermediary between Sibiya and Motsumi.
"My question was actually: Who is making the payments through Sergeant Nkosi?" Hassim asked.
"I said I don't know," Matlala replied.
Matlala told the commission that his meeting with Mkhwanazi had been the catalyst for subsequent criminal charges against him.
"I think it's at ad hoc [committee meeting], where [Mkhwanazi] said that after I left his place, he heard, I don't know from who, that I was telling … that I mentioned my meeting with him and twisted the story," Matlala said.
He said that after he had met Mkhwanazi, he had found himself facing multiple criminal charges.
Matlala said he had not been aware that he was facing an attempted murder case.
Mkhwanazi, however, previously testified that Matlala had sought his assistance regarding the attempted murder case.
"The next thing is that I hear that there is an investigation in Gauteng into the attempted murder of his ex-girlfriend. What is happening?
"I said: 'No, do not ask me that question. I am not in Gauteng. I am here [in KZN]. I cannot even answer any question,'" Mkhwanazi told the ad hoc committee.
Matlala said he had assumed he had a quid pro quo arrangement with Senona and Mkhwanazi.
He alleged that Mkhwanazi was supposed to assist him with the Medicare24 contract, while Matlala would help Mkhwanazi and Senona with a court case they were facing.
Matlala said that a day after his meeting with Mkhwanazi, he had asked Esmael Nandy to withdraw assault and kidnapping charges he had instituted against Senona and Mkhwanazi.
"Was this an exchange for him doing you a favour in relation to General Nkhuoa, that you would then ask Mr Nandy to drop this?" Hassim asked.
"Yes, I assumed that, yes," Matlala replied.
"You thought it was a favour you were doing for General Mkhwanazi?" Hassim asked.
"Yes, I thought so," said Matlala.