Questions: Dumisa Ntsebeza ‘will always remember’ a remark by a former apartheid minister that the government had ‘infiltrated the ANC from the bottom to the top’. Photo: Paul Botes
Lawyer, author and political activist Dumisa Ntsebeza talks to Nicolene de Wee about his appointment as judge of the African Court on Human and People’s Rights. He also discusses his work with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, how meditation helps him cope with trauma and his love of James Bond movies.
How would you describe your childhood in Cala in the former Transkei where many referred to you as ‘a very smart boy’?
I grew up in a house where my parents, who were both teachers, had respect for education. Our family-owned a large piece of land where we grew mielies and, as children, we were expected to work on the land. This was definitely not my favourite pastime. My father was an important and respected man in the area, and even the police didn’t just enter our property without permission.
Some Saturdays, we worked as caddies at a property used as a golf course by local white residents. We used that money to pay for movies at the municipal hall in town and although we were forced to sit at the back, due to apartheid laws, we ended up having a better view than the whites who occupied the front seats.
You went from being a teacher, bank teller, political activist and later a lawyer. But many describe you as the person who helped heal South Africa’s wounds during the era of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) and later at the Marikana inquiry into striking miners killed by the police. What are the highlights of your career?
Strange as it may sound, I liked teaching, and it felt good to shape young minds during those difficult years. But I left teaching and started working at Standard Bank for almost three times my salary. I managed to save up enough money and bought a second-hand bakkie, which I used for political work throughout the country.
In the late Seventies, I went back to teach at an elite school for the sons of chiefs and headmen in the Eastern Cape where one of my pupils was Bantu Holomisa, who today leads the United Democratic Movement. It was some of the most memorable years of my career.
My father did influence me to become a teacher, but he also supported my decision to study law eventually.
In your view, did the Truth and Reconciliation Commission succeed in healing South Africa’s wounds?
I’m not one of those who say that the TRC failed South Africans. It is more a question of those whom the TRC handed their recommendations to who should be answering many questions. When our work was done in 1998, we recommended to the ANC government that certain individuals be prosecuted. We presented a whole list of names to the government.
For example, back then, we already recommended that those behind the murders of Dr Neil Aggett and Ahmed Timol be prosecuted. It’s the same government who went to court to try to prevent the publication of our final report in 1998. We should ask ourselves: “Why?”
It is not farfetched to conclude that certain things happened. I will always remember a remark by the former apartheid minister, Louis le Grange: “We have infiltrated the ANC from the bottom to the top.”
It is now clear to see that we may well have in the successive government since Mandela, people in the ANC who may have worked with the previous government’s security services. Therefore, it is not in their interest that certain things of the past must be unearthed — that’s the conclusion I came to.
The TRC’s mandate was to do a broad brush against the canvas just to create the impression that something had been done. In fact, at the TRC, we became the victims of our own success. We were set up to fail if the expectation was that we would deal with issues relating to the reconstruction of society in the given time frame.
As human rights stalwart, you will be the second South African serving as a judge at the African Court on Human and People’s Rights. The court is also known as the continent’s highest human rights body. What do you bring to the table?
I couldn’t believe it at first. My wife called me to say I must come home, and she shared the news with me. I however only believed it when the Minister of Justice, Ronald Lamola, congratulated me via WhatsApp later the same day.
But to answer your question, and you can publish this: “I don’t know what I’m taking to the table. Die Here weet alleen [Only God knows].”
What comes to mind are things like the genocides and human rights atrocities in Rwanda and the DRC [Democratic Republic of the Congo]. On the African continent, we still have human rights that are observed more in the breach than in practice. We now have a court, which will make a difference. The court sits four times a year, and there might even be an extraordinary session.
In the meantime, there is lots of reading and research to be done, and it will be a tough job. If I was simultaneously elected to serve at the African Court and the International Criminal Court, I would definitely choose Africa because I believe charity begins at home.
I also believe that Africans have something to say in the discourse of international humanitarian law and these forums need to be populated by people who are committed to those kinds of rights.
Not so long ago, you lost two of your four children. How do you deal with the grief?
Meditating and taking long walks allow me some quiet time. I guess calling it meditating gives it some mystic sense, but it allows me to enjoy nature, but also to think about all manner of things.
You’ll be surprised how far you can walk without realising it because while meditating you walk from one thought to the next. I think about society, class differences and inequalities in the country.
It has become my coping mechanism, but it also helps me keep fit and clear my mind.
Does your nickname ‘Bra D’ have a special meaning?
The word “Bra” is a form of respect which is quite similar to the expression “leadership”, which is often used nowadays. It can also be used as referring to someone as a brother, and I think that’s why Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng is even comfortable to call me “Bra D”. I don’t think it’s because I’m older than all of them, it’s more a form of endearment.
You describe your taste in music as ‘wide-ranging’. What are your favourite pastimes?
Yes! My taste ranges from traditional music to classical tunes. People are often surprised at my love for rock music, especially because they assume that I’m a huge jazz fan. I don’t really sing well, but I can keep a tune and love music. My wife and I both love stand-up comedy and, without exception, Trevor Noah is our favourite. But the one secret I can share with you is my love for James Bond movies. Nothing can beat the phrase: “I’m Bond, James Bond”. He is one of a kind.
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