Martin McGuinness speaks to Dean Nelson about what he has learnt from the South African peace process
Variously described as Sinn Feins chief negotiator, the Irish Republican Armys godfather of godfathers and the personification of its armed struggle, Martin McGuinness appears far too sober to have revelations.
But he has had one and its shocking: he could actually come to like his Ulster Unionist Party opponent David Trimble and one day may even love Democratic Unionist Party opponent Reverend Ian Paisley.
Such a vision seems more like a hallucination. It came in the Western Cape in early June as leaders of Ulsters main political parties met the South African government and the strategists who negotiated the countrys transition from apartheid.
The Ulster delegates wanted to see if they could learn from South Africas experience in resolving what had been one of this centurys most enduring conflicts. McGuinness was moved by what he saw.
We had people there from the National Party, Roelf Meyer, Cyril Ramaphosa of the African National Congress, people from the old South African Defence Force and many of the other political parties involved in the negotiations.
What I found really interesting about it was that obviously a number of years previously these people were bitter enemies, and here they were sitting together. From watching their body language it was clear that many of them actually liked each other, even loved each other.
The message for me was that if they can do that, we can do that also.
But the conditions that were laid down by the unionist parties for Sinn Feins attendance adds another perspective: they were forced to travel separately; at the end of the weekend, says McGuinness, Nelson Mandela made two farewell speeches one for Sinn Fein, one for the others.
It says much for the chief negotiators optimism that he could find any hope in such complete isolation. I said at the end of the weekend even though there were all sorts of problems and there was no doubt the unionists felt very uncomfortable, probably much more uncomfortable than we felt that no party would remain unaffected by what they had heard, and I believed that in the weeks and months ahead we could possibly see the results of that trip.
He points to his head-to-head debate with the unionist MP, Ken Maginnis, on a BBC programme as one of those first fruits. Although that encounter revealed only the strength of unionist contempt for the republican leader, McGuinness regards it as evidence of new thinking within unionism.
I publicly gave credit to David Trimble and Peter Robinson for going to South Africa because the only logical reason why people thought they went there was because they felt they had something to learn. And that was progress. Its a small step, but I see it as new thinking by their standards.
McGuinness recounts a discussion with Meyer, the NPs former chief negotiator with the ANC. Meyer told him that his partys big mistake was to regard the problems of apartheid as security issues rather than political ones.
They only moved forward in the South African peace process when the NP was willing to concede that the problem was a deeply rooted political one which required political negotiations. From that moment, from FW de Klerk accepting this new analysis, the situation moved forward.
He says the IRAs 1994 ceasefire collapsed because the British government, notably former prime minister John Major and former Northern Ireland secretary Sir Patrick Mayhew, continued to focus on security issues rather than political dialogue.
I could have walked away from all this in 1993, when Mayhew went into the British House of Commons and told a bucketful of lies about my role in the private discussions between Sinn Fein and the British government; when he said the reason these contacts began was because they got a message from Martin McGuinness. Many people within republicanism since then have asked, why did Mayhew do that?
It has always been my belief that British strategy in Ireland for many, many years has been controlled by people who have a military agenda, by people who believed for over a quarter of a century that you could kill the problem in Ireland, imprison it, shoot to kill it.
Republican paranoia about British bad faith in the peace process was reinforced by the leaked government memorandum over Drumcree, stating the intention to have a controlled parade on the Garvaghy Road over the heads of local objectors.
It was the long list of people in MI5 and British military intelligence to whom the document was circulated that interested Sinn Fein most, reinforcing their belief that the government continues to see Northern Ireland as a military rather than political problem.
McGuinness believes that British Prime Minister Tony Blair may be Irelands De Klerk in that he has taken courageous steps over the months to remove such obstacles and that this is the beginning of a British government challenging those people with a military mindset who have held us all back for so long.
He says it begs the question how much further along the road to a settlement Northern Irelands parties could have progressed had Blair been in power when the 1994 ceasefire was declared. He cannot answer this, but insists the solution must be an end to British jurisdiction.
The reality is that British rule has failed miserably, not just nationalists but also the unionists.
Blairs declaration that he is a unionist who does not believe there will be a united Ireland in the lifetime of todays youngsters has not shaken McGuinnesss faith. He says he is not impatient and does not hold to the traditional demand for an end to British jurisdiction within the five years of a Parliament.
I dont believe there is anybody on the island who believes British rule is going to end overnight, its going to be a process, but one which should not take overly long.
He believes the talks must persuade the unionists that they too could live with that and must face up to the reality that British rule has failed.
And if Britain does not give up its sovereignty? As far as Im concerned if it doesnt there is no justice, he says.
The South African influence bubbles up once more as he says finding a way on this island to live in peace with one another is essential not just for his children but also for Trimbles children and Paisleys grandchildren.