Who is Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: an ambitious rabble-rouser, or a champion of the poor? An ungovernable spendthrift, or a misunderstood woman persecuted for her criticism of government? Madikizela-Mandela spoke to Sipho Seepe, RehanaRossouw andDrew Forrest about the economy, Aids, the arms package, the tripartite alliance, women, her debts and her fraud case
Rehana Rossouw: What do you think is the most pressing problem facing South Africa today?
Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: There are very many problems facing the country, particularly unemployment. We cannot divorce one problem from another. Unemployment gives rise to poverty, and that impacts on the scourge of Aids. There is some truth in the fact that there is some association between poverty and Aids. Our greatest revolution is the fight against poverty.
RR: Do you think the government has the correct economic policies in place to deal with these problems?
WM-M: I am not an expert on economic affairs. But I am aware of the fact that the economic policies devised by the government do not seem to have impacted at all on the poverty of our people. It has not created the jobs we promised the masses of our country who voted for a better life for all. When I say that, I am part of that government.
The government ought to listen to the people and our trade unions. If they have a problem with the present policies, it should not be problematic for us to address their concerns in a manner of levelling the playing fields.
If Cosatu [the Congress of South African Trade Unions] is saying that the policies are not working, is it not the responsibility of the leadership to go back to the drawing board and ask ourselves is this the best we can do in the circumstance?
Why should it be a problem in a democratic state to revisit a policy that the workers regard as problematic? We are a democracy and the workers have the right to voice their views. They are the ones who are the mothers and the fathers of the future generations of this country.
Drew Forrest: What is your position on the document prepared by the national executive committee of the ANC on the alliance that labels critics of the government’s economic policies “counter-revolutionary”?
WM-M: I wouldn’t like to pronounce on documents that have emanated from our own offices. I am in no position to analyse them. My democratic opinion is that it ought to be an accepted fact that if unions are unhappy with the economic policies, that they feel it is not advancing democracy in South Africa, that it should be their democratic right to say so. That should not be seen as dissent.
RR: Do you believe HIV causes Aids?
WM-M: HIV does cause Aids. Personally, I have no problem with that. I believe in what scientists tell me, because I am an ordinary social worker and I am a politician by accident. I come from orthodox schools where I was brought up to believe my teachers, and to understand what science is saying. That is not an area where I can pretend to have any expert knowledge.
HIV causes Aids. It has happened in my family. I have lost several members of my family in rural Transkei.
RR: As a social worker, a mother and a politician, how do you feel about the fact that the government will not spend R30 on a newborn child to save it from facing death?
WM-M: I am constricted with pain. Until something is done to save those babies, I don’t think any of us should sleep peacefully in our graves knowing that we could have saved them.
Sipho Seepe: What do you think of the fact that the government found millions to spend on a new jet for the president but cannot find money for nevirapine? How do you reconcile that with the notion of a caring government?
WM-M: I couldn’t have been in a position to protest about the country buying the president a plane. I could never be part of that kind of decision making. A decision was taken and therefore the president has to acquire that plane. It is difficult for the people I interact with at grassroots level to understand how they continue living the way they do which to them is no different from the previous, painful apartheid past. It is difficult for people like myself to go and explain to the people in the informal settlements that the army does need modern weaponry and that the decision of Parliament was that we should acquire armaments. Surrounding this deal, as would have been expected, there are problems. Throughout the world arms deals have always been clouded with question marks. I don’t know of any country that has not gone through this. Would it have been possible, for instance, to purchase less of these armaments and divert this expenditure elsewhere and divert it to the poorest of the poor?
I am not an expert on arms deals, but I wonder why we are spending so much on corvettes, on importing technology. Could we not have built some of these armaments in our country? During apartheid and sanctions, we boasted that we were one of the best arms manufacturers in the world. Maybe it would have been better to generate jobs in our country by making some of these armaments in our country.
RR: You have said twice now that you were not present when decisions are made. There have been complaints from many people that you do not attend Parliament regularly. Why do you not go there when decisions are made on Aids and arms?
WM-M: I am part of the government that takes those decisions. I have never disrespected Parliament. I have a different view. I respond to the smallest of invitations to go to the smallest branch when I am called to do so. I do not walk out of Parliament without any reason. I do not announce what I do in the informal settlements because I am not looking for any publicity. I do a lot of my work in the constituencies that have put me in Parliament. I am the face of the ANC. I travel to each and every corner of this country when I am called to do so by the people in the informal settlements.
The ANC has a two-thirds majority in Parliament. I can stand and howl in Parliament if I had an opposing view, but it would be totally inconsequential, my sitting there in Parliament. In any case, because of the structure of Parliament, legislation will be passed whether I am there or not.
SS: Are you saying then, that you cannot have an individual opinion in a democracy as defined by the ANC?
WM-M: I cannot, for instance, go and speak against my minister and question him in Parliament about a decision because I must take the party position. And that party position is a majority position.
RR: And in the informal settlements, do you take party positions there as well?
WM-M: I have never taken party decisions for my people. I am one of those leaders who listens to the grievances of the people. I have never claimed to have miraculous understanding of the problems of our people.
DF: What would you say to the allegation that you are spending so much time in informal settlements building a personal power base?
WM-M: When I am in the informal settlements I am working for the ANC. The individual plays no role at all. The votes I got for the present government were votes of the ANC. During the last elections the ANC was facing a take-over by the United Democratic Movement in the former Transkei. I was deployed there for just three days before the elections. I am not claiming supernatural powers, but I am one of those who managed to turn that province around and gave it back to the ANC for it to have a two-thirds majority.
In the ANC you can’t build a personal power base because at the end of the day it does not depend on how many votes I have raised wherever I am. Ultimately, the decision on who gets deployed where rests with the deployment committee and the presidency. Whether I am a populist or not, that popularity is for the ANC and not the individual.
SS: In the past we had people called leaders in South Africa who were basically puppets imposed by a minority clique. Is the deployment committee not also a clique that is imposing leaders on the people?
WM-M: The decision was taken by the majority in the ANC that there should be a deployment committee. We are not saying that it is not flawed. For instance, I went to Zandspruit last week to try to douse the fires there. The informal settlement was literally on fire. I thought what was happening there would create a bad image for us, particularly as we have tensions in Africa. The understanding of the people on the ground is that the deployment committee is imposing leaders on the people. I am in the ANC, a decision that was taken to have a deployment committee is binding on me also. This does not mean that I must not listen to what the masses are saying. In Zandspruit, the people are so poor, most are walking barefoot. I asked them who their councillor was, they didn’t know. I asked them if there was a branch of the ANC and who their chairperson was. I was given his name. I asked him who were the officials of the ANC responsible for that area and he didn’t know. These are the problems we cannot deny within our ranks. Those perceptions are correct at grassroots level. They are saying you are imposing people we don’t know.
SS: Do you think that by having a deployment committee the ANC is sending the message to the people on the ground that they are not intelligent enough to elect their own leaders?
WM-M: That would be argued by people outside the ANC that this is what is happening. I wouldn’t argue against that. That is a perception that does get debated among our people. Being a member of the ANC and having to adhere to the principles of the organisation should not destroy the individual intellect of a person. People do have their individual views. Unfortunately, at present in the structures of the organisation there is often a misinterpretation of that view. A common view is that dissent is not acceptable in the ANC.
Take the issue of Mathews Phosa, Cyril Ramaphosa and Tokyo Sexwale being regarded as plotters against the president. The question for some of us was why is it regarded as being a plot if people aspire to be a president in a democratic country? Does it become a problem to say it is allowed? A minister is able to go on television and announce peoples’ names without verification. When a call is made for the results of that announcement of an investigation into a grave plot, and the response was not forthcoming from the minister, then we have a problem in answering questions like yours about whether dissent is allowed in the ANC. Up to date, to my knowledge, that question has not been resolved.
DF: Is the culture of the ANC changing? Do you think the party is more hostile to individual views. And if it is, why do you think this is happening?
WM-M: I understand the people who say there is a shift in the ANC. I would be in a better position to answer your question if I knew why the three comrades are being branded as plotters. In the old days of apartheid, during election, your newspaper once had a poster “the skiet and donner elections”. We have shifted our tactics towards those people we think are a threat to ourselves. We are more subtle, resorting to labelling and so forth.
SS: I have not heard any Cabinet ministers, premiers and MPLs suggesting that the president could be wrong. Why does the ANC find the notion that the president can be wrong so difficult?
WM-M: There is a public perception among our people that we are terrified, that people have lost their individuali-ty, that we no longer have the freedom of expression we had when we were fighting the struggle for freedom. When we were in the struggle we had very strong views because we fought an enemy we could clearly identify. Within the ANC I wouldn’t be in a position to say, for instance, why the ministers cannot tell the president that the public perception is that the president is not right about some policies. There is that undefined silence.
DF: Does one man in the ANC stifle debate? Is it a question of the style of leadership?
WM-M: I wouldn’t like to address the president in this interview. There will be other forums where it will be necessary for me to express my views, especially in the forthcoming cases I am facing. Unfortunately, I cannot make any comment at this stage.
RR: What about the women’s league? Are you going to use it as a platform to express your problems with the ANC? Are you available for re-election as president of the league?
WM-M: I have never had any problem with that. The women in this country are still in a position to take decisions ourselves. Although our autonomy in the ANC Women’s League is limited. We are autonomous in name only. The women still have a degree of self-expression and can say who they want their president to be.
RR: So you are available for re-election?
WM-M: Yes, of course, if they want me.
DF: There are perceptions that the women’s league hardly exists.
WM-M: The backbone of the ANC is the women’s league. It is well known that the ANC has serious problems at provincial level and provinces have had to be disbanded. The women’s league is also affected by that and is compelled to disband as well. The problems of the women’s league are the problems of the ANC. If a decision is taken to dissolve the leadership then the women’s league has to abide by that. The women’s league is also hampered by a lack of resources.
SS: At a conference of the league recently you delivered a paper on leadership. Was this an indication of your problems with the ANC leadership?
WM-M: That is ridiculous. I cannot elect myself as the president of the ANC. I cannot elect myself into any leadership position in the government. The deployment committee will make that decision. The conference was supposed to be August. It has now been shifted to March next year because the women are not ready. All I was doing was cautioning the women about the type of leadership they must now begin looking at electing at the next congress. I highlighted the different kinds of leadership. Women know the challenges facing them. We had a paper that was generously written for us by the men on the challenges facing the women. But we have reached the stage where women shall not be spoken for by men. We want leaders who are prepared to live with the people, find out what they have, build on what they have and who do not expect people to follow sheepishly.
DF: What do you say to the allegation that the top leadership in the ANC wants to replace you as president of the women’s league?
WM-M: I have never campaigned for that position. When I first became president of the women’s league I was not even a delegate at that conference in Durban organised by returnees from Lusaka. The conference decided to elect me. It is not something I am bothered about, who wants me where. I’m no singular person or product. I am not a product of a clique. I am not a media product. I am a product of the masses of this country. I am just me.
SS: You have alluded to the fact that at a personal level you are subjected today to the same forms of harassment you faced from the apartheid regime. Is this how you feel?
WM-M: There is no change whatsoever from the day we first embarked on that voyage towards democracy. In my personal experience, I have not felt all those glorious political terms. From 1994 I have never personally known peace or felt any difference. To me, that struggle is continuing just like before. Because of the a number of hurdles I face, the cases that come up to coincide with political events the country is facing, or events within the ANC.
For instance, the conference of the women’s league was supposed to be in August and has been postponed to March. This case against me now was timed to coincide with that period. The case was supposed to be on November 20. In court we had an extraordinary statement that came from the prosecutor it should have been made by my defence team. The prosecutor said he was not prepared to proceed on November 20 and the case should be postponed. That is the last available date this year, so obviously it is going to be closer to the congress. But they have been investigating the case for a whole year. History is going to tell very soon a lot will come out of this present case.
DF: Are you saying that the case against you was engineered from within the ANC?
WM-M: I don’t know.
DF: Why do you think the ANC would do that?
WM-M: I would love you to bring me that answer.
DF: Do you think they are scared of you? And if so, why?
WM-M: I am not aspiring for any one particular person’s position. I have never done that. The people of this country will decide what government they want.
DF: You were once a deputy minister in the Cabinet. Do you still aspire to hold high office? Do you have political ambitions?
WM-M: It was never material to me how I served my people. When one person decides at a stroke of a pen where you should serve, I have serious problems with that.
DF: There are allegations that you are a very ambitious person.
WM-M: How would it work? It sounds very illogical to me.
RR: When you are in the squatter camps speaking to poor women, are you not using that time to campaign for yourself?
WM-M: I do not surround myself with praise singers. I surround myself with people who tell me precisely what has to be done.
DF: Are you worried about the state of the country today?
WM-M: I am very saddened by the current state of affairs. I am very worried about the direction we are taking with the alliance. I am scared of the level of anger at grassroots level. I am extremely worried about the mothers who have to parade on the streets to get anti-retroviral drugs to prevent mother-to-baby transmission of HIV. Those are issues that hurt me very deeply. I would have thought that the debate on these issues would have come to an end. I am not sure if this debate is taking anybody further. Even if you say tuberculosis causes Aids, people have a right to use the medicines they believe will save their children. Isn’t it their democratic right to have access to medicines?
DF: Do you think the government should provide anti-retrovirals, especially to pregnant women?
WM-M: I was hoping yesterday when I was listening to our minister of finance, who was talking about beefing up security, beefing up police services, that he would also say something about looking after the poorest of poor, that he would extend hope to people with HIV and Aids. Because there is no way you can just deal with poverty and not with Aids.
DF: Don’t you think that when you arrive in a squatter camp with a luxury car that people might think you are one of those politicians who lives a high life and does nothing for the poor? What do you think people say when they read in the newspapers that you spend R76 000 a month?
WM-M: I have never regarded myself as an individual in the struggle for the freedom in my country. Whatever is done to me as a person is inconsequential. To me the struggle for the women is not over. The question about my personal circumstances is being dealt with by my family and those who have a mandate to do so. To me, the struggle is far from over. The youth of today are suffering the same ills they suffered under apartheid. We cannot claim to have liberated this country.
SS: The issue of President Thabo Mbeki pushing you away on June 16 caused quite a stir. What kind of message do you think that sends to the women of South Africa?
WM-M: We are looking at the issue of taking up that matter legally. It is part of a pattern of these sorts of cases. It is one of the reasons why Stompie’s ghost is always brought up. Why is it that at 7am when my structure that is helping my community is demolished, that Jerry Richardson’s girlfriend is there dancing in the street. I did not know my structure was being demolished but she was informed. Why was Xoliswa Falati given prominence in a daily newspaper? What kind of signal is this giving? What is the significance of giving Falati a whole page in a newspaper? We are moving to the women’s congress, so this sort of thing must happen.
SS: While the ANC did not support you, members of the opposition condemned the conduct of the president in the June 16 incident. What do you think of that?
WM-M: I thank the leaders of the opposition for that response. It emphasised the importance of an opposition in this country, who can hold our leaders to account when they get out of line. It is such a pity that there isn’t a strong opposition in government. Every democracy needs an opposition to keep the government in power in check.
DF: How would you characterise your relationship with President Mbeki?
WM-M: He is the president of the ANC and I am the president of the women’s league [laughs].
DF: There has been a history of conflict, with the leak of the letter alleging he is a womaniser, for instance.
WM-M: Yes, that is true. If that letter had been resolved I would have been able to answer you. I promise when we do resolve that issue, we will talk again.