”Don’t compare me with Mugabe — I will give Zimbabweans the opportunity to get rid of me,” says Zimbabwe opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai in conversation in Harare with Padraig O’Malley
Where is the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) after the election and how do you move forward?
President Robert Mugabe was spoiling for a fight. If we engaged in mass protests, the democratic movement would have been crushed. We decided to build confidence.
Mugabe’s dictatorship must be confronted by the people and until they are motivated by a clear goal, we will not do anything. The regime is unsustainable because of mass poverty and starvation in rural areas, companies closing, no forex, basic commodities almost exhausted.
Nigeria’s President Olusegun Obasanjo and President Thabo Mbeki tried to intervene to legitimise Mugabe, without confronting his [il]legitimacy in the elections. They chose diplomacy rather than democracy and gave him space to consolidate. The whole attempt was destined to fail from the beginning.
There is only one way out. Mugabe and his cronies are trapped nationally and internationally. We must find a back door for him.
[More than] 80% of Zimbabweans want change. But we have to choose between violent and non-violent paths, the challenge being a young generation who believe it is time to think about armed struggle. We must be conscious that beyond this chaos, we’ll have to pick up the pieces.
Do you think in Zanu-PF there’s mounting opposition?
Oh yes. It has dawned that Mugabe is more a liability than an asset.
Does he realise the extent of the opposition?
To some extent. He is accusing everyone of sabotage, including his ministers. The gulf between reformers and hard-liners who think only about power is widening.
Africa mobilised against apartheid, but not against Mugabe. Why?
Until apartheid was defeated, the anti-colonial struggle was not finished in Africa. There was guilt on the part of the West.
Now it’s more of a national issue, it does not raise international emotions. It is a dictatorship and so what? One more dictator is not going to make a difference in Africa. The opinion is: Zimbabwe is independent. If they mess up, that’s their problem.
Why do you think South Africa has not openly…
The African National Congress is divided, but I think Thabo Mbeki’s position is that Mugabe is a stabilising force. He has the instruments of power. If there is a change of government, there may be conflict. His preference is for a reformed Zanu-PF government.
That’s like asking for a reformed National Party government!
Exactly. In all nationalist movements, a small ruling elite acquires power and wealth, while the nation is neglected. Zanu-PF justifies its existence by saying, ”We fought for liberation and no one should challenge our hegemony.”
That’s what’s going to happen in South Africa down the line. In another five years or so the racial divide will be used as a scapegoat for Mbeki’s failure, for the ANC’s failure in government.
Mbeki is in a predicament. [Minister of Finance] Trevor Manuel will privatise. It’s exactly the same ideological contradictions that are going to confront him. Already they are there. Cosatu [The Congress of South African Trade Unions] is complaining about privatisation. The government say it’s the only thing.
Here we had to implement a structural adjustment programme. There was no alternative to it and yet we knew that the causes of structural adjustment were nothing but corruption and maladministration, otherwise we wouldn’t have needed it.
Then down the line the government tries to say there is no alternative, but down the line when people complain about the effects of that programme — the government starts using the racial divide. It’s a very good scapegoat. I have no doubt in my mind that in South Africa it will emerge, but give it another five years or so, and the racial divide will be used as a political scapegoat for Mbeki’s failure, for the ANC’s failure in government.
Have you met Mbeki?
Unfortunately not. I have met most of his senior ministers.
Have you requested a meeting with him?
At one point yes, I did request a meeting. I was told that I would have to see the minister of security first before I could meet him. It never took place. I don’t know whether there is anything personal — the first time we met person to person was when he was with the ambassador so it was not a person to person meeting at all.
Have you met Nelson Mandela?
Oh yes. I have a very high regard for him. Within three hours of asking him for a meeting, I met him.
When Mugabe said, ”Our former colonial masters are interfering in our affairs again”, did he touch a nerve in Africa?
That’s what he wanted to touch. In Africa there is solidarity of leaders, not solidarity with the people. The attack on Mugabe is one every African leader fears most: democratic participation.
But Mugabe is not only to blame, we have a land question here. It’s not as if Britain is fighting for democracy in Zimbabwe; it has its own national interest in the land question. The robust British participation has not been good for us. There are many African crises, why this special interest in Zimbabwe? Those who distinguish between the forest and the trees are labelled puppets of whites and the British.
So other African countries would not condemn Mugabe because that would see them being collaborators with the former colonial masters?
That’s what has stopped Mbeki in his tracks. There were stories in The Herald saying, ”Mbeki’s supporting the West.” That’s why dictators are attacking Nepad [the New Partnership for Africa’s Development] and why the [African Union’s] agenda is blurred.
The reformers [in Africa] are saying: ”We’ve had 30 years’ experience of nationhood, it’s time we owned up to our mistakes.” But others hide behind the colonial past. The colonial agenda is manipulated, not for the good of the African people, but for the good of leaders.
Zanu-PF took the land reform agenda from the MDC and made it their own, but to raise emotions, bring back the liberation struggle. Whites had to be put off the land, invasions and violence had to take place.
What have the beatings to do with land reform? The people realise it is not just about land. They are not convinced that for 22 years Zanu-PF had no capacity to implement land reform, but that six months before elections, it became necessary to implement it.
What can Mbeki and Obasanjo do to legitimise the AU and Nepad approach — Africans taking responsibility for resolving conflicts and guaranteeing democratic governance?
They say: ”Zimbabwe is so crucial we don’t want to push it so that it becomes a conflict area.” We have so many conflict areas; it’s difficult to establish African credibility. So let’s solve the others: Angola, [Democratic Republic of Congo], Sudan, Sierra Leone.
Eventually they will have to come back to the Zimbabwean crisis. Their agenda will be: the only solution is a government of national unity. We’ve gone through this before, with Joshua Nkomo [the late Zimbabwean nationalist leader]. The people won’t hear of it because they [have] got a government of leaders, not of the people.
Have you seen a change in Mugabe? One can see him now as a megalomaniac.
He is a megalomaniac. He’s totally irrational, even for his own interest. The defiance is a façade; deep down he’s afraid of change that will hold him accountable. He’s done so much harm to people. A frightened, trapped animal is more dangerous — hence the need for a back door. But that can only be guaranteed by [those] outside. He can’t believe people inside [Zimbabwe] will forgive him.
We hoped South Africa would guarantee his exit, but I don’t think that is happening.
What effort is the government making to manage HIV/Aids?
HIV/Aids programmes were more of a private initiative, rather than one of government leadership. We still have denial: ”He didn’t die of Aids, he died of malaria.” There has been no national focus and the pandemic has been devastating. [More than] 25% of adults are HIV-positive. What is important is political leadership, no ambiguity.
Where is Aids among the MDC’s priorities?
Number three, after poverty and law and order.
Does the Mugabe government allow anti-retrovirals?
There isn’t the debate that we saw in South Africa. Anti-retrovirals are allowed, but it’s a question of availability and cost.
How do you compare the government’s position here on Aids with the government’s position in South Africa?
Mbeki made it a personal issue, making arguments on academic lines. He’s not a scientist, so has no authority. It does not solve the problem. South Africa was at an initial stage of infection and he could have done much to prevent the disease.
When the first Aids case was detected here [Zimbabwe], there was bombast by the health minister that there is no Aids in Zimbabwe. Total denial for the next three, four years.
What compels governments to deny the existence of Aids?
Dictatorial governments prescribe what is good for the people rather than allowing the people to define what is good for them.
You have a population that appears … fairly apathetic about the lengths they will go to ensure change.
I don’t think Zimbabweans are that docile — why did they fight for liberation? A dictatorship has instilled fear on a massive scale and would do everything to retain power, including killing people. We are almost in a [Augusto] Pinochet situation.
Our biggest challenge is when change comes, let’s not make it a change of power, but involve the people in a new political culture. Restore confidence slowly, bring people on board to feel that national institutions, the police, your army, the [Central Intelligence Organisation], whoever, are there to serve them.
Are there two components in the MDC, held together because you all want to get rid of Mugabe?
I don’t think we are united by our hate of Mugabe. The social democratic platform has been good for uniting people. You need to recognise the elements of production and redistribution.
I told the Cosatu executive, who are still crazy about Marxism-Leninism: ”The biggest lesson we have learned in Zimbabwe is cut the rhetoric.”
Our experience has been rhetoric about socialism; for 10 years we were on a campaign of redistribution without considering production. What happened? We had nothing to distribute and a structural adjustment programme.
The ANC said pre-1994: ”We must bring the people on the board.” The public protector’s last report to Parliament said service delivery has not improved since 1996; that there’s increasing alienation between the government and the people…
Judge me as an individual; don’t judge me with Mugabe. I tell Zimbabweans: at least I will give you the opportunity to get rid of me.
Padraig O’Malley is a senior fellow at the John W MCCormack Institute at the University of Massachusetts, Boston. He has monitored the transition in South Africa since 1989. His work is now being archived by the Robben Island Museum