Why did the national working committee of the African National Congress not act against Tony Yengeni on Monday?
We give space to individual leaders to follow their conscience … the ANC only moves in when your own conscience does not guide you properly …
Do you, then, expect him to resign?
I believe he should do what is best in accordance with his own conscience. The ANC never abandons people. A saint is a sinner who is always trying to correct his ways.
Do you think his conscience is helping him? He has admitted defrauding Parliament …
The way we look at it, that is one humble step in the right direction.
But the ANC has included him in the Eastern Cape task team. He was elected to the national executive committee. You are endorsing him.
It’s not like that. As a former prisoner, I will tell you there are rules in prison. You can have a model prisoner, one who complies — he is then recommended for parole. But once outside there are no such rules, and he can revert to the same old ways …
Are you saying you want to give him space to reform?
No … but he was elected by congress. We expect that wherever he goes, whatever he does, he follows his conscience.
In the townships, 4x4s are refer-red to as “Yengenis”. Isn’t that damaging for the ANC?
Well, it’s a democratic country; people draw their own conclusions. We are concerned about the feelings of the people as we are about him and his conscience.
Under the ANC’s constitution, you have to institute disciplinary proceedings against members who abuse office …
Once he has been sentenced, it will be referred to the national disciplinary committee.
The Mail & Guardian has reported allegations that Miles Nzama, a trustee of the ANC Fundraising Trust, sought to influence a state tender in favour of Skotaville Press. The ANC is alleged to have a stake in Skotaville. Is there such a party trust and is he a trustee?
Well, I wouldn’t know. The treasurer general handles these matters.
Surely you would have an idea if there was such a trust …
Like any entity, the ANC would have several trusts. I know the Batho-Batho Trust owns 75% of Thebe Investments. The treasury handles those issues …
Are you conducting an inquiry into this?
No. You will have to speak to the treasury.
The M&G has tried to contact [ANC treasurer] Mendi Msimang. He has said he has referred the matter to lawyers.
We have not been taken into confidence regarding that matter. They would know whether Miles was acting on behalf of the ANC. Members of the ANC, any of them, could claim that if we succeed in getting the tender, we will donate something to the ANC. The stand we take is that if the ANC is involved in anything, it will say so.
Do you have an interest in Skotaville?
I don’t know. It has never been disclosed to us. But where the ANC is directly involved it will say so. A bid should stand on its own strength, so that if it wins, it should win because it was the best bid.
Shouldn’t you act against those who use their ANC links?
Why should we? Those who allow themselves to be influenced by these individuals are not upright themselves. They should respond: “So what?” All they have to do is verify with the ANC.
Shouldn’t all parties disclose their funding sources?
We would agree with the transparency principle if it applied to all entities with business interests. If you single out political parties, it will lead to much more sophisticated funding methods. And the ANC’s relationship with any business could be misconstrued because it is the ruling party. We would do away with close corporations, trustees. Many heads of corporates would not like that.
What is the state of the ANC? What is its membership stand?
Our audited membership at the time of the congress was over 400 000. We want members that are conscious and politicised — our support base is much larger. We are taking in the number we can handle in terms of politicisation. Mlungisi Hlongwane of [the South African National Civic Organisation] told the ANC conference he had seven million members. If you tell people: “Buy this card, it has many benefits”, you could very well have six million members.
What is the state of the tripartite alliance as you go into the growth summit?
The alliance secretariat is meeting on March 1 and 2 to develop our approach to the summit. We are assuming it will take place in May.
Have relations between the ANC and its allies improved?
Relations have never been bad. There are differences on specific issues; the manner of handling those differences sometimes generates heat. If we become the same, there is no need for an alliance.
Could the South African Communist Party ever contest elections against the ANC?
SACP members are ANC members, with the right to shape the direction of the ANC. SACP members sit in the Cabinet. What more can the party be looking for that would make it fight an election against the ANC?
Does the ANC fear some members are seeking to influence the party in a socialist direction?
No. The ANC is broad-based. We cannot become a single-class organisation — if we do, it will defeat our revolution. Revolution means mobilising the social forces, which includes all classes.
Will you be reviewing the ANC’s relationship with the Inkatha Freedom Party, given that Inkatha may enter an electoral pact with the Democratic Alliance?
In KwaZulu-Natal we had a coalition government with the IFP — and [Lionel] Mtshali brought the DA in through the window. There is a matter of principle which we have to clear with the IFP, and the presidents [of the ANC and IFP] will soon be meeting. We are prepared to work with any political organisation that wishes to transform the nation.
We understand many ANC members were unhappy about the pact with the New National Party …
No, that is not true. Since the NNP is the architect of racial discrimination and we are the dismantlers of that system, we can fast-track the dismantling of the system together. It is not so much what we do as parties. The message we send to ordinary people is that if we can work together, so can the rest of the country.
Senior NNP members such as David Malatsi have been charged with corruption …
It is the normal process of democracy. If you engage in wrongdoing, the law will take its course. If people wish to correct their ways, we should be there to help them.
It is a very Biblical approach …
You may be right. But revolutionaries are builders of people as well.
Is the ANC biased towards Zanu-PF in the Zimbabwe crisis?
The Movement for Democratic Change knows and accepts our relationship with Zanu-PF. The ANC has always believed the two have to find a way to work together. The MDC controls all the urban municipalities in Zimbabwe. How will the economy work if they don’t interact?
Are you still involved in efforts to promote dialogue?
Morgan Tsvangirai attacked the ANC and the president the day after we met an MDC delegation at Luthuli House. We have since withdrawn, but remain open to meet them …When our ministers go for a government-to-government meeting, the onus is on them to arrange to meet us.