”After having collected the money from [Charles] Modise, I gave it to the general secretary of the SACP [Nzimande]. Why I did not take it to the bank is again part of the information contained in the affidavit that I have given to the police,” says Willie Madisha who spoke to the Mail & Guardian‘s Matuma Letsoalo about the disputed R500 000 donation to the SACP.
You are on record as saying you received R500 000 from businessman Charles Modise as a donation to the SACP. Did you give the money to the party’s general secretary, Blade Nzimande?
Yes, after having collected the money from Modise, I gave it to the general secretary of the SACP [Nzimande]. I’m on record as saying that.
Do you perhaps have any reason why you did not deposit the money into the party’s bank account?
I gave it to the general secretary. He is the highest official in the organisation. Why I did not take it to the bank is again part of the information contained in the affidavit that I have given to the police.
Did you have any reason why you did not acknowledge the R500 000 during the SACP’s central committee meeting in August 2002?
I have explained that to the police. It’s in the affidavit and given the fact that the matter is sub judice, it becomes extremely difficult for one to say.
Would you give any particular reason why this allegation surfaces only now, if the donation was made in 2002?
Look, it surprises me as well, but what I want to emphasise is that I did not lay the charge. I did not go to the police station to open the case. I only came in as a witness — as a person who was given money by Modise to deliver it to the general secretary. That’s how I came in and that’s why I’m not happy that I have been targeted as a person who is pushing for the isolation of the general secretary of the SACP. It has never been my intention to do that at all.
Can you confirm if it is true that you and Modise met Nzimande a few months after the 2002 congress about the donation?
I can confirm that yes, myself, Nzimande, Modise and other people, who I can’t mention, met at the Birchwood hotel in the East Rand. At that particular meeting, Nzimande thanked Modise for having donated the R500 000 to the SACP.
Do you think it is unfair to Nzimande that the complaint is laid against him while the money was given to you?
The police would have to see to that. I have been targeted wrongly. I did not lay the charge. That’s the point that has got to be emphasised. For people to now rise and say I am wrong, I am not happy with that. They must check where the problem is and ask a question whether the money did exchange hands. That is one question that has to be answered.
The SACP says the allegation is part of a concerted smear campaign directed at discrediting its image and tarnishing Nzimande’s integrity?
I don’t know if this was Modise’s intention as he is the complainant. He is the one who laid the charge with the police and perhaps he should be the one that has got to respond to that question.
Many within Cosatu and the SACP have accused you of colluding with Modise and Phillip Dexter in a smear campaign against Nzimande. They say this is also part of an attempt to minimise the voice of the SACP before the national congress of the ANC?
I met Modise when I requested the donation. I did not know him before. I came to know him only when I requested the money from him. After he donated the money, we never met again. Those who are saying I’m colluding with Modise and Dexter to destroy Nzimande are wrong. Nzimande is my leader, he is my friend. I don’t believe really that I wanted to destroy him, but as for the SACP, I will die for it.
You have been labelled an ultra-leftist because of your views on the government’s economic policies. Now you are under attack from your own comrades, who have accused you of siding with capitalists to destroy leaders from the left?
I believed that the economic policy, Gear, was wrong. I still hold that view today. If fighting for the cause of the workers is ultra-left, then I’m happy to be ultra-left. Siding with the capitalist? That’s a view held by people who can’t think properly. They need to prove that I have actually shifted to a particular level. I was accused of having met the president of the ANC and the country by my own comrades and it was my own comrades who said in 2001 that things are not moving properly because I, as the president of Cosatu, was not meeting with the president of the country. It was as a result of the instructions by my own comrades in the constitutional meetings of my federation that I went to meet President Thabo Mbeki. Unfortunately some people came and said this was a problem.
Some unionists believe you have now shifted your views and are much closer to Mbeki?
Those who say I must not relate to him are wrong, just as they would be wrong if they say I must not meet the general secretary of the SACP. We are leaders of the tripartite alliance. If we want the alliance to succeed and grow, why would it be a problem to interact with other leaders?
Would you have any problem with Jacob Zuma replacing Mbeki as ANC and the country’s president?
That is up to the ANC to say.
What is your preference?
What Cosatu has said, not what Willie Madisha has said, is that we want the kind of leader who is close to the people, a leader who is able to take the alliance forward and make sure that there is proper interaction, a leader who will be able to unite the alliance.
Do you agree with the view that Zuma is the only ANC leader who can ensure that the interests of the working class are taken care of?
Cosatu has never said we should support Zuma as the next president. What the congress of Cosatu said last year was that the central committee must debate and come up with a resolution as to the approach that needs to be followed, not to say so and so must be the leader.
And that is not Zuma?
Well the workers will have to decide. But I can tell you, at the moment we don’t have an official position as Cosatu.