The African National Congress has recently changed tack on Aids drugs and dropped its assault on the trade union ”ultra-left”. Was this because an election was imminent?
It’s incorrect to say we’ve recently changed direction on the provision of anti-retroviral drugs [ARVs]. That decision was in the pipeline in ANC structures for some time. When it was taken, another process had to take place — ensuring identified and accredited medical sites, with minimum health standards, were available to distribute ARVs. We had to be supported in terms of drugs for opportunistic infections, and doctors and nurses skilled in maintaining Aids patients. We also wanted to ensure uniformity of treatment; it’s no good for the health system if one province gives support and another can’t.
As far as the ”ultra-left” is concerned, what’s changed is that we and the unions have been talking to each other to bridge the information gap. One example is the growth, employment and redistribution policy [Gear] — by debating the economic fundamentals it became obvious the policy was working for the country. We have the longest growth trajectory in 30 years and a stable currency in a hopeful and stable economy.
You would agree the ANC has been damaged by its handling of HIV/Aids.
The debate in the ANC took place in the context of the entire world struggling to deal with the epidemic; it was a trial-and-error situation. The people understood this, there was no backlash on the ground.
I don’t think being wrong on an issue necessarily damages an institution — people make mistakes and misjudge. The important thing is to say: ”We were wrong, now we must take the correct route.”
At the unveiling of the ANC manifesto, a businessman complained of being shaken down for bribes every step of the way while bidding for a state contract. How bad is government graft, and how much of an issue for ordinary ANC members?
It is an issue for the ANC rank and file, in fact for the whole country. But it existed before 1994. And more than 80% of corruption is exposed by the government, which deals with it through the courts. The government has passed anti-corruption laws; it has given a mandate to a range of institutions to crack down on corruption; it invited the private sector to form a partnership against corruption and crime. We don’t sweep corruption under the carpet — we expose and deal with it.
What is to happen to Jacob Zuma after the election? Does he face ”re-deployment” to KwaZulu-Natal?
This is not on the ANC’s immediate agenda. We’re in an election campaign; once the election’s over those in authority will decide where people are deployed. But I would emphasise that only allegations have been made against the deputy president and we’re not going to judge people on that basis. We need to respect the courts of law and [the Constitution’s] Chapter 9 institutions.
Will this election mark the end of the ANC’s coalition with the Inkatha Freedom Party?
I don’t think so — we’ve always said we’ll work with any organisation willing to be part of transformation and change. The decision lies with the IFP — do they still want to work with the forces that believe in non-violence, development and transformation? Do they believe in free and fair elections, free association and human rights? We’re not going to compromise on those principles. The IFP is forging a closer relationship with the Democratic Alliance — we hope this follows very serious scrutiny of what the DA stands for; the DA in Parliament has voted against critical laws for transformation and change. We seem to be in a kind of interregnum — we’re not sure where the IFP is going.
How popular is your pact with the New National Party among ordinary ANC members? Will they accept another NNP premier in the Western Cape?
Before that pact was sealed it was canvassed with the grassroots through our national executive committee [NEC], which includes provincial premiers, chairpersons and party secretaries. It’s not as if the leadership took the decision without consulting.
I can’t predict who’ll be Western Cape premier — we’ve said premiers in ANC-majority provinces will only be announced after the elections. If the NNP is decimated at the polls it will mean it no longer exists and there can be no partnership. But we have a responsibility to bring stability to the country and to make sure we’re not power-mongers. That will guide our decision in the Western Cape; we’re not taking the view that if we win a majority we’ll take all.
How can you sustainably halve unemployment and poverty by 2014 when the government’s main job-creating mechanism — public works — can only generate temporary work?
We’ve repeatedly said we’re talking of job opportunities. The government knows its strengths and limits; we can only facilitate job creation through public activities — social spending, public works, housing and so on. Through the temporary activity of building houses, carpenters, say, will get work. But at the same time more sustainable work is created in private industries supplying furniture, curtains, crockery and stoves. The same applies to roads and bridges, which have to be maintained. We’ve said we’ll improve infrastructure. If docks, railways and telecommunications are taken care of, associated activities will remain alive.
We don’t want a situation where the government pokes its nose where it’s not needed. Some of the Asian countries ran into trouble a few years ago through excessive political interference. The government wants to concentrate on what it does best and leave the rest to the experts — while ensuring the experts don’t work against the interests of the people we’re trying to help.
Many ANC leaders have business interests, while most empowerment executives have ANC connections. Isn’t there a steep rise in ”crony capitalism” in South Africa?
When you join the ANC, you don’t become half a citizen — if ANC members want to be involved in business, shouldn’t they be allowed to? As long as their dealings are open and genuine, and party office is not abused, I don’t think there’s a problem. It’s the responsibility of individuals to recuse themselves when their specific businesses, or policy relating to them, are being discussed, so that they don’t become both referee and player.
Policy is discussed by comrades at every level up to the NEC and the national conference — how can one [corrupt] individual change that? The assumption is that ANC people will abuse power to advance their private interests. The lack of trust your question suggests is something we have to deal with as a society.
How does a party with an increasingly overwhelming majority remain accountable to the people?
You’ve got to make sure checks and balances are in place. That’s why, after 1994, we said: Let’s have institutions that give power to each and every one of us — the Chapter 9 institutions such as the Auditor General, the National Director of Public Prosecutions, the Constitutional Court … But in any case, election results reflect what the people want to see happening in South Africa. The majority vote for the ANC because they believe in its policies.
Surveys consistently show the ANC is more popular than its leader. Is Thabo Mbeki — and particularly his eccentric views on Aids and the labour movement — a liability for the party?
Not at all. There’s a tendency for people to want to compare him with Nelson Mandela, but Mbeki is himself; he brings his own experience to the presidency, you must take him for what he is. People also don’t understand how the ANC functions — when he makes a statement, he’s putting across the ANC’s position, he acts within the party’s framework and discipline. There’s too much focus on personality.
The emphasis of Mbeki’s government has been to identify issues that need urgent attention in terms of the country’s future, like poverty and unemployment, and taking difficult decisions. This included saying: let’s understand this [Aids] epidemic, let’s look at it from all sides; let’s ensure our approach is sustainable. He engages his ministers, he wants to know how you’re going to go about things, from step A to Z.
It’s easy to make yourself popular, but he’s a leader that helps us confront the hard issues.