Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula came to rare prominence two weeks ago when he controversially suggested persistent whingers about crime should leave the country. Mail & Guardian reporter Fikile Ntsikelelo Moya quizzed the largely invisible minister on his statement, and on crime and policing more generally.
Where were you coming from when you called for whingers to leave South Africa?
Nineteen MPs took part in the debate in response to my budget speech in Parliament, including myself. Of these, 16 were constructive and only three were negative. I was referring to these three, and I mentioned them by name. I was thinking of a letter in The Star in which the writer argued: “For goodness sake, South Africans, get a life. Get away from negative ‘skin colour attitudes’, join hands and make this country great. Then maybe our kids can come back home to a bigot-free zone!”
But still, do you think the “whingers” should leave the country?
That is politics. I know they will not leave; it was a throwaway remark. I don’t have the right or the authority to throw them out. In fact, I often complain that the levels of crime in South Africa are unacceptably high. At imbizos I often tell communities and the police that it is a lie that they don’t have the resources to fight crime. They can make a difference with what they have.
Police National Commissioner Jackie Selebi says he sees no need for an Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD). We have three police oversight
bodies, the ICD, the police secretariat and Parliament’s safety and security committee. Do we need them all, and if not, which should go?
We need all three. They all have different mandates: the parliamentary committee looks after the interests of Parliament; the secretariat is an advisory committee that deals with policy matters; the ICD deals with police misconduct or deaths in police custody.
So, how are you resolving this matter with Selebi?
I asked him what he meant and he explained that his vision was for a police service that had transformed in every respect, to the point where problems such as deaths in custody and infraction of the rules and regulations are a thing of the past. He said he accepted that was an ideal situation and that the ICD would continue to have a role in terms of its mandate.
Did he indicate when this vision might be realised?
I am a member of the South African Communist Party, and we say “build socialism now”. We mean that lasting change will take a period to achieve. Any politician who attaches a time frame will be lying.
You are a communist, yet you have been criticised for failing to sufficiently emphasise the social causes of crime.
In the majority of my speeches I emphasise the social nature of crime; that arresting these people and throwing them in jail does not solve the problem. We need to address the reasons for such crime. It is not just my argument, it is government policy. Initiatives such as urban-renewal projects are designed to improve the situation.
What else is to be done?
I told Parliament that we have a certain experience, such as street committees, and in other countries they have what they call committees for the defence of the revolution. But I told African Christian Democratic Party leader Reverend [Kenneth] Meshoe that I am not suggesting we go back to that. I am not calling for that because we have community policing forums [CPFs].
How effective are these forums?
In the worst-case scenario, we have CPFs that do not hold meetings, where police are not called to give account or where the main interaction is with the police and not the community. But we also have CPFs that are raising their own funds and where the community is participating at every level, such as in neighbourhood watches, and there are regular report-back meetings. The worst-case scenarios are in the townships and rural areas. The best cases are in the former white areas, but you can find township forums that can be rated 10 out of 10.
The South African police are often criticised for their inadequate training. What is your response?
This country has trained its security well. We know because we fought against them. That is why when there is talk of peace and stability on the continent and elsewhere, South Africa’s name is considered. Our police training is one of the best in the world. We are training the police personnel of other countries here. That shows how good our training is.