‘My ambition is my people’

Tokyo Sexwale speaks to the Mail & Guardian’s Vicki Robinson about his bid for presidency.

Please clarify your position on the ANC leadership race.

The elections process within the ANC is clear. There is lobbying, followed by informal nominations, followed by formal nominations, followed by elections. What is happening now in my case is lobbying — people approach me and say: ‘We are discussing your name.” So, have I been lobbied? Absolutely. The incorrect impression seems to have been created that lobbying is prohibited.

We understand that you cannot give names of the people who are lobbying on your behalf. But please shed light with a description — youth, business people, ANC veterans.

There is a wide range of people, but I will leave it to whoever is lobbying to indicate, at their own time, that they are doing so. This will probably be when the formal nomination process starts.

The nomination process in the ANC hasn’t been formally opened yet, could you give us an idea of what stage your ‘lobbyists” are at — have you formally sat down with them to discuss the terms under which you would accept nomination and do you have a strategy?

There is no lobbying by Tokyo, and I never said there was. It is false and erroneous to suggest otherwise.

You have a historically strong relationship with Nelson Mandela. Would he like to see you in the Union Building from 2009 — do you have his blessing?

Many of us, historically, have a strong relationship with Madiba. But it is not a question of getting blessings: the democratic process will take its course. It is probably best to put this question to Madiba himself — although, on a lighter note, he has always maintained that his vote is his secret.

Have other veterans thrown their weight behind you? If so, who?

As I stated, there are a wide range of people who have approached me.

You have said in some interviews this week that the internal democratic processes in the ANC needed to be strengthened. Please explain what you mean.

The watchword here is ‘strengthened”! Any ANC member would easily agree with that. Essentially, the ANC is a democratic organisation, and debates, discussions and discourse are always there. Sometimes we may border on being rude — but we will always revert to our democratic centralism.

Do you feel that people’s leadership ambitions, whether presidential or otherwise, are being stifled by the fear of being attacked for being ‘an undisciplined ANC member”?

In terms of ambitions, I would like to paraphrase Amilcar Cabral and state very clearly that my ambition is my people. When they get hurt, I get hurt. When they progress, we all do. No one’s personal ambition must be outside his own people. And personal ambition is completely useless if it is outside the national interest.

Are you concerned that your early (in the sense that you’re one of the first) pronouncement could leave you open to attack? On the other hand, have you not thrown your hat into the ring too late?

I have no such concerns. I wear no hat, so there is none to throw into any ring. Again, I have clearly stated the kind of candidate I will never be. I can never be a candidate for tribalism, for regionalism, for factionalism or racism. In a way, I have said this to dissuade people who may harbour such thoughts.

Is Cosatu’s contention that they don’t want a pro-business president outdated given global economic evolution?

Let me state clearly: without Cosatu, there is no alliance. Without the SACP, there is no alliance. Without the ANC, there is no alliance. These are fraternal organisations, and we all express views from time to time — both common views and differing views. This is healthy and should not be discouraged. But what should be frowned upon are views which undermine the cohesiveness of the alliance.

The ANC has historically always had a pro-working class bias. But it would be fundamentally erroneous to categorise the ANC as a working class organisation. The history and teachings of the ANC are emphatically opposed to an approach of that nature, as it would fundamentally undermine the cohesiveness of the multi-class ANC.

Do you take the ANC Youth League seriously — they lambasted you this week for stating your ambitions without formally being nominated, yet they have backed Jacob Zuma in exactly the same way?

The future of our country is our youth, of which the Youth League is an important political component. Comrades in the youth league hold their own views, just like other autonomous structures of the movement. Some of these they state in public, and some they state in private. I have no doubt they understand my standpoint very well.

Isn’t it time that Kgalema Motlanthe admits the presidential lobbying is well on track rather than reusing the old adage that individual ambition was not a characteristic of the ANC?

Comrade Kgalema is our general-secretary, and that question is best answered by him.

You mentioned you would never accept a nomination ‘for disunity in the ANC, for tribalism, for regionalism.” Are there such agendas in the party?

Our organisation is rooted in national unity, and opposed to any form of disunity. I am satisfied that I have highlighted that I should not be approached by people on the basis of such primitive sentiments.

Put your business hat on. Is there market skittishness, both domestically and internationally, about a possible Zuma presidency?

No. From where I sit, the markets have not shown any pro- or anti-Zuma sentiment.

December 2007 and you’re elected party president: what do you offer the 5 600 delegates and rest of South Africa in terms of your presidential plans?

As I indicated, no one has formally nominated me for a position. In any event, it would also be presumptuous to offer any plan or vision outside the parameters of the ANC.

We have heard that your ANC membership in fact lapsed at some stage and you re-joined last year, is this true? If so, could it be argued that you’re out of touch with policy debates et cetera?

Ours is now a season of rumours … I am more than a card-carrying member of the ANC. I have carried weapons. I have carried the pain of torture during my incarceration. I have carried the burden of the death cells, and of being held on Robben Island. I was always prepared to pay the highest price for this organisation — beyond the price of a membership card.

Having said that, let me put this issue to rest: My ANC membership is in order. My membership number is GP2757748, and my membership gets updated from time to time.

As a rank and file member of the ANC today, I occupy no position. There is always a time to lead and a time to follow. Leaders have to do more than lead — they also need to know how to follow.

Sections within the tripartite alliance have criticised you for being out of touch with the mass base of the ANC. How do you respond to this?

I remain in touch, not only with our members and leaders, but with the rest of society.