Barbara Creecy, Minister of Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment. (Photo: Delwyn Verasamy/M&G)
Barbara Creecy, the minister of environment, forestry and fisheries, likes to watch the British medical drama series Casualty, she tells Sheree Bega. It’s become a family joke. “I tell my kids that my life is one series of crises and that when I watch Casualty somebody else has to deal with the crises. That’s very relaxing for me.”
How did you become involved in student politics?
My family was active in politics, but not in a high-profile way, and as a child, you could never get through a meal without all the reference books being on the table … You know we had something called an encyclopedia before Google.
You think today the concept that the world’s knowledge could be contained in 12 books is an entertaining thought but that’s how it was. We were brought up that you had to put forward a coherent argument and defend your position.
My father died when I was eight and my mother raised us. It was tough. I think I was the only child at school who didn’t have two parents. When I got divorced I asked my children: “Do you feel strange at school because your parents are divorced?” They said: “No, everybody’s parents are divorced. We felt odd when you were still married.”
My mother was socially conscious. She brought us up that apartheid was wrong. I didn’t understand what it meant to be in politics, but from the time I was 11 or 12, I was very clear that that’s where I was going.
When I went to Wits to study political science – my first year was 1976 – I found what I was looking for. I got involved in the student protests.
I never thought I’d hold a position like this in my own right. I suppose I thought I’d work for somebody who held a position like this and he would be a man.
I’m a beneficiary of affirmative action and the gender policies of the ANC.
What’s been most difficult in your current position?
We’re working in a context where we understand the damage that state capture has contributed to the government system as a whole. There have been problems with irregular behaviour throughout the system so we’re having to confront that in our department. These things take resources, energy and time and affect human beings.
The second related area is the functionality of the environmental system. If you read the environmental law in this country, it’s quite advanced. It’s complicated because different levels of government have different roles and responsibilities but what you will find is how the weakness of state function has affected our system — the regulatory process is not ticking over.
How does this manifest?
You have a significant number of municipalities that don’t have the compliant infrastructure at all when it comes to landfills, for example.
With air quality, it’s the same story.
Who gives the licence to the power station, or the Sasol plant or the mine? It’s the municipality. Who gets money for issuing that licence and who has a regulatory function? The municipality. So what’s the problem — is it that the municipality doesn’t know that or that they’re scared to do anything about it? Or is the problem that they were paid off not to do something about it?
What do you think South Africa in climate-hit 2050 will look like?
The world is in for some very tough times. I don’t think we should have any doubts about that. Will we be able to take our country and humanity as a whole to the other side? What we understand, and as the coronavirus has taught us, is that one country on its own can’t battle this pandemic because we’re either all safe or we’re all not safe. The same applies to climate change.
Africa contributes 4% to global emissions and South Africa 2%. So, of course, the country we are all worried about is the US, which is the world’s biggest emitter and wants to leave [the] Paris [Agreement].
Even if we had zero emissions, if other people are not on board it’s not going to help. I’m not saying that because I don’t think we must do things. But sometimes environmental groups suggest if Eskom became green we wouldn’t have climate change and that’s not true.
I do think we need to play our part. We’re part of the multilateral system and we’re a signatory to Paris and [the] Kyoto [Protocol].
You’ve been politically active since you were a student. How did you become involved?
My family was active in politics, but not in a high-profile way, and as a child, you could never get through a meal without all these reference books on the table … You know, we had something called an encyclopedia before Google! You think today the concept that the world’s knowledge could be contained in 12 books is an entertaining thought but that’s how it was. We were brought up that you had to put forward a coherent argument and defend your position.
My father died when I was eight and my mother raised us. It was tough. I think I was the only child at school who didn’t have two parents. When I got divorced I asked my children: “Do you feel strange at school because your parents are divorced?” They said: “No, everybody’s parents are divorced. We felt odd when you were still married.”
My mother was socially conscious. She brought us up that apartheid was wrong. I didn’t understand what it meant to be in politics, but from the time I was 11 or 12, I was very clear that that’s where I was going.
When I went to Wits to study political science — my first year was 1976 — I found what I was looking for. I got involved in the student protests.
I never thought I’d hold a position like this in my own right. I suppose I thought I’d work for somebody who held a position like this and that he would be a man. I’m a beneficiary of affirmative action and the gender policies of the ANC.
What’s been your most difficult challenge in your current position?
We’re working in a context where we understand the damage that state capture has contributed to the government system as a whole. There have been problems with irregular behaviour throughout the system so we’re having to confront that. These things take resources, energy and time and affect human beings.
The second related area is the functionality of the environmental system. Environmental law in this country is quite advanced. It’s complicated because different levels of government have different roles and responsibilities but what you will find is how the weakness of state function has affected our system — the regulatory process is not ticking over.
How does this manifest?
You have a significant number of municipalities that don’t have the compliant infrastructure at all when it comes to landfills, for example.
With air quality, it’s the same story.
Who gives the licence to the power station, Sasol plant or mine? The municipality. Who gets money for issuing that licence and has a regulatory function? The municipality. So what’s the problem? Is it that the municipality doesn’t know that, or they’re scared to do anything about it … or were they paid off?
What do you think South Africa in climate-hit 2050 will look like?
The world is in for some very tough times. Will we be able to take our country and humanity as a whole to the other side? What we understand, and as the coronavirus has taught us, is that one country on its own can’t battle this pandemic because we’re either all safe or we’re all not safe. The same applies to climate change.
Africa contributes 4% to global emissions and South Africa 2%. So, of course, the country we are all worried about is the US, which is the world’s biggest emitter. [The US pulled out of the Paris climate accord on Wednesday] Even if we had zero emissions, if other people are not on board it’s not going to help. It’s not that I don’t think we must do things. But sometimes environmental groups suggest if Eskom became green we wouldn’t have climate change — and that’s not true.
We need to play our part. We’re part of the multilateral system and we’re a signatory to [the] Paris [Agreement] and [the] Kyoto [Protocol].
How is South Africa playing its part?
We’re reviewing our nationally determined contributions; we’re setting up the place where the Just Transition is going to be negotiated — the presidential climate change coordinating commission. We’ve completed the first phase of the low emissions development strategy and the national climate change adaptation strategy.
Sub-Saharan Africa is already severely affected by climate change. Our country is vulnerable and there’s no doubt these impacts are going to get significantly worse before they get better. The second issue is the capacity of the state to respond. What’s scary is we know institutions such as Eskom are in a fragile state so you can’t just say “stop”, because then what are we going to do?
One of the things we’ve learned [from Covid-19] is what we can do when the government works together in a fairly short space of time. We may not be galloping forward, but we’re taking small, important steps.
Still, there’s criticism that our post-Covid economic recovery is carbon-intensive and doesn’t prioritise a “green” recovery?
We think a lot about responding to climate change and reducing greenhouse gases as being about dealing with Eskom. It’s more complicated than that. It’s about looking at productive processes in all industries and sectors so that we’re using less water and less energy.
In the private sector, there’s a lot of demand for own generation. They’re going to generate in the cheapest way possible and increasingly renewable technology is becoming the cheapest option. There’s an increasing consciousness in the private sector that there wasn’t even a year ago … that the world around is transitioning and that if we want to remain competitive, we’re going to have to transition.
The high-level panel into lion, rhino, elephant and leopard management has also come under criticism.
The panel has worked hard. There have been a lot of public submissions … I think the one thing that is going to come out will be policy reform. The other issue, where there is a huge gap, and it relates to captive breeding, is the issue of welfare. In the existing environmental legislation, there is nothing that gives the minister the right to regulate welfare … I suppose the idea was that welfare was about domestic animals and wild animals were looking after themselves … but it’s clear there is a huge gap on the welfare side.
You seem to be very focused on waste issues?
You can thank the President for that. He’s very worried his country is in a mess. You have to do what the boss wants in any job … I had a shock the other day. I went to the Woolworths in Rosebank and left my bags in the car, which was quite far from the store. I say to the teller, “Please can I have a bag?” He said no. I asked why not. I was quite irritated. He said: “We don’t supply plastic bags anymore.”
In the work we’re doing with the Consumer Goods Council of South Africa, we’re gradually identifying chain stores where we’re removing plastic bags. Consumers have to get used to it … When you work in government in a developing country, you can make a difference if you want to. That’s important to me. This is the last chance, you know. After this I’m going out to pasture.
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