Exclusive: Zuma on his future

“Ambitious men get sick if they think their chances are ruined, I’m telling you, I’m not ambitious,” an apparently relaxed Jacob Zuma told the Mail & Guardian this week. In the first full interview he has given since his dismissal as deputy president, Zuma spoke about the Schabir Shaik judgement, the divided state of the African National Congress and his new job as a full-time ANC official.

If the people want you, will you make yourself available for the leadership of the African National Congress in 2007?

As I have always said, it is not my choice. When the ANC has given me a task, whatever task, I have never refused. So any task, I will be ready for it.

Do you still feel confident of your support?

It’s not about me feeling confident; I think people are sympathising with me being victimised. I think they are definitely correct, I mean the whole thing has been so one-sided.

What will your work as the ANC deputy president involve?

There isn’t necessarily a job description; it’s a flexible position. There are routine things that I will be doing like meetings of the officials, being a member of the national working committee and so on. Working on the ground is what I’ve always loved, and I would imagine that with me no longer in government, and given the need for political development, I will be doing more of that.

The Congress of South African Trade Unions and the South African Communist Party are worried that with your dismissal the voice of the left in government will be lost …

What is important, and people do say it from time to time, is that I come from a trade union movement background and it is that thinking and approach that I bring to my work. I think in that context it should be a natural [concern] from the trade union movement.

Will President Thabo Mbeki consider affinity with the left when he appoints your successor?

I can’t guess who the president will appoint and what considerations he is going to give. I don’t know if this informed the president’s decision to appoint me in 1999 so really I wouldn’t want to speculate.

Mbeki said he had decided to relieve you of your duties because of considerations relating to the constraints within which government operates. What did he mean?

I think the president explained in the speech — the institutions of democracy, and the upholding of the Constitution. But I think the president is better placed to explain.

You claim to have been treated extremely unfairly over the past five years. You also complain that you’ve not been given an opportunity to defend yourself. How will you tell your side of the story?

I can’t decide which mechanisms should be created for me to do so. The National Prosecuting Authority found a prima facie case against me, which means I was never charged and was therefore never given a chance to tell my side of the story. Judge [Hillary] Squires also reiterated at the beginning of the judgement that I was not on trial, but in the end he made certain determinations about me. Maybe bright, legal people understand why this happened, maybe the judge also thinks it is fair to say the things he did about me, but I don’t understand it. Reading the Constitution, not from a legal background, but as an ordinary man like myself, it says that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty and that you need a chance to respond to any allegations put against you. I have never been given this opportunity, but everybody says that we are running a constitutional state and we must respect the Constitution.

If the Scorpions charge you, will that enable you to tell your side of the story?

I don’t even want to think about that, it’s not my business at this stage.

Some in the ANC hold that the Schabir Shaik trial and your dismissal were orchestrated by political conspirators. Who are they and what is their agenda?

This suspicion has been fed by a comment that the old head of the National Prosecuting Authority [Bulelani Ngcuka] made: that he would try Zuma through the media. One of the things he did in order to do this was to have an off-the-record briefing with selected editors where he character-assassinated a number of us. Where are the constitutional rights of these individuals if somebody in charge of such a sensitive organ finds it within his routine to conduct such meetings? Once you have got this unclear process you can’t help but say that there is some political agenda of some kind towards specific individuals.

Have you ever confronted Mbeki about this conspiracy?

I doubt we need to answer that question [laughs]. I don’t think I am ready to answer that one.

By refusing to resign last week, did you force Mbeki to dismiss you?

I’m not sure I want to discuss that either [laughs].

How is your relationship with Mbeki now, and will it be difficult to work as his deputy in the ANC?

I accept and respect his decision; I have got an obligation to respect the decision. We’ll work together. He is the president of the ANC, I am the deputy president, we’ll work together.

How do you plan to support yourself financially now? What is the size of your government pension?

I can’t discuss that, absolutely not [laughs]. I know exactly what my pension is, but I can’t discuss it.

Many in the ANC believe you’ve been unfairly treated. Surely this feeds divisions?

It does, unfortunately it does. In 1963 I was sentenced to 10 years in prison by Justice Steyn here in Pretoria. It was a political trial. I listened to Judge Squires and there was nothing different to what I heard 42 years ago in terms of the political judgement. This judge [Squires] is a politician who served in his country at one point in two capacities: as a judge and a minister. So we are not talking about someone innocent who has simply studied law.

How are these divisions being managed both in the ANC and the state?

If you handle a person who is supposed to be deputy president of the country in an unclear manner you are brewing [divisions]. For example, the media was asked not to be in court during the trial but it was invited when the judgement was to be given. I’m not sure that that isn’t political. The judgement was really a rehash of the prosecution without any of the background. I’m not criticising this but there are too many coincidences that feed into the notion that the case was politically driven.

Have you spoken to Schabir Shaik since your dismissal?

I haven’t spoken to him, I was going to talk to him today [Wednesday] but I have been in Cape Town.

Thirteen fateful days

June 2: Judge Hillary Squires finds Schabir Shaik guilty on two counts of corruption and one count of fraud and rules that Jacob Zuma and Shaik had a “generally corrupt relationship”.

June 4 and 5: