The ANC’s Western Cape chairperson, James Ngculu, is often described as an Africanist. Pearlie Joubert spoke to him about racial tensions in the province.
Are racial divisions in the Western Cape a problem for the ANC?
Every issue the ANC faces in this province centres around race and resources, and the divisions have been very pronounced over many years. Economic disparities are a serious cause of our challenges, the way the economic situation is designed to keep Africans at the bottom of the pile.
Yet the ANC seems to say that race is not a problem and that parties like the DA are playing the race card.
The ANC isn’t saying that — we have big race issues here. The last election results show that 80% to 90% of whites voted for the DA. Whites vote to maintain the status quo. In the coloured community one can also see it: they feel threatened, that they have to defend the crumbs that they were given by apartheid against the encroachment of Africans.
ANC spokesperson Smuts Ngonyama sparked anger by saying coloureds were as much beneficiaries of apartheid as whites. Do you agree with him?
We do recognise that those who face the biggest brunt of apartheid oppression are Africans and particularly African women. That’s why in all ANC strategy documents, you will see the main content of our revolution is the liberation of blacks in general and Africans in particular.
Aren’t these apartheid-style distinctions?
The ANC would never be so callous to think only Africans struggle in this province. The critical issue facing us is to ensure we improve the living conditions of the black people in general.
But sometimes people hype race issues for their own interest and not because it’s a burning issue on the ground. The comments of the Franklins [Franklin Sonn] and Van [Richard] der Rosses are not the views of the working-class coloureds, who are interested in the fight against crime and better schools and houses and a better future for their kids.
During the past election, the ANC lost coloured votes.
So did the DA. We also won wards we didn’t have before — like Atlantis. We’ve made significant gains in coloured wards. There’s no victor in the Western Cape. The ANC didn’t win the election and the DA didn’t win the election.
How are you going to bring about fundamental economic change for black people?
Parts of Khayelitsha still don’t have sanitation. The president said that by the end of 2007 no one should have the bucket system. Our people don’t have skills. Tourism contributes 10% of the economy and Africans and coloureds are not the main beneficiaries. The only job opportunities for black people are cleaning, finding work in the security industry, or Eskom, Telkom and the Port Authority. None of these jobs pay people well enough to help create a bourgeoisie and lift people out of poverty. African or black business is in no healthy state.
Whoever improves the living conditions of people in the province should be in power. We [the ANC] control the government — we have no excuse that we don’t have the resources.
What is your definition of an African? Last week you said you’re an African, I’m white and Rasool is coloured.
There’s a dual interpretation in the ANC. In his “I’m an African” speech the president talks about Africans being from Malay heritage, Europe and Africa. There is also the definition that we come from this continent and therefore we are all Africans.
What are Max Ozinsky and Ronnie Kasrils? Surely Africans, according to the president’s definition.
An African is James Ngculu and Pearlie Joubert. Of course you are an African.
Two weeks ago the president came here to talk to ANC leaders? Why?
We invited the president. We wanted to brief him on our challenges and progress.
Didn’t he come because the ANC here is in trouble? You lost the city.
No, his style is not to come in fighting. The first day he said nothing; he simply listened. Right at the end of the day, he said he wants to know what we’re planning to do. He didn’t tell us what to do — he asked us.
The ANC is not in top form here — there are a lot of rumours of factionalism and racism.
I deny that categorically. The top five ANC positions are filled by two Africans, two coloureds and one white — which is representative of the population in the province. The DA has a much bigger problem when it comes to racism. White and coloured Afrikaners are saying that they’re bringing in most votes for the DA, but they’re not taken seriously.